Alternate Mode KAT Percussion Forum
KAT Percussion and Alternate Mode Discussion Forum => Gig Announcements and Performances => Topic started by: Orb Vroomer on May 28, 2009, 07:51:38 PM
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Hello,I'm Orb Vroomer & I'm new around here.Figuring out this forum & looking forward to meeting some new musical peers.I have recently started a you tube channel to showcase my drumkat & some original songs.I'm looking for comments,etc. Please link me back to yourself & others.I've been searching out all varieties of musical performers & having a blast.My channel link is http://www.youtube.com/orbvroomer .
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Very interesting. The tough thing about the one-man band concept is the lack of flowing melody lines and harmonies, etc. Everything is either Pad synth sound heavy or orchestra-strike heavy. Hard to get away from the dominant percussion/rhythm aspect of it. It works well with your Islands in the Sky. Mission Impossible sounded pretty cool. That's a very intriguing rig you have. Is the rack custom made?
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Thanks for the feedback!The one man band concept has never really pulled the whole thing off.In addition to the lack of flowing melodies.etc. it is hard to create that hook the masses want.I can't sing ,so then your into the 'front man' concept & the one man deal is gone.I do some vocoding & some rather crazy synth modulation via a mic and 2 mod pedals running into my Korg MSR 2000 (also can be bussed to any synth).So far no examples posted yet,but I have a back log of material like this,so one day in the near future I'll post another batch of videos.I also have 2 light systems I used to bring out to live shows that are completely controlled by the Drumkat.I have 16 ch. of conventional midi to voltage dimmers/lights & an intelligent board feeding 5 Roboscan 812's.All triggered live.The dimmers are great as they are velocity sensitive.When your sounds trigger in sync with the lights no light man can ever cue late -because he's been eliminated!Thought I'd just try to make a 'one man drummer band' sound a little cooler to watch live by explaining a couple more aspects of my 'whole rig'.You asked about the rig & think we are talking 'rack'?The frame is 1.5 alum. tubing (like ult supp.) with metal Gibralter clamps & some plastic clamps,too.I have an explanation of the electronics,etc. on my you tube profile page.Anything you see on the rig that is not from a manufacturer is you basic 'junk yard meets radio shack'.Thanks.Orb.
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I didn't quite grasp the concept and working mechanisms of the two "rings" or wheels in your set up. Can you explain that more?
I would love to see the lighting in action.
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The LISA 'ring' on my left is a device I created.It allows for one hand to trigger an 'infinite' roll or arpeggio.Whatever pattern or series of notes you program on the DK can be triggered indefinitely.Most of my examples use only 8 notes,but you can use up to 128 notes.(see Bulgarian intro-LISA & WEEL are used).Another use is single snare drum sound.This trigger can then be used to play a 'one handed roll'.If there are any drummers who lost a limb & are looking for a little help this might be even more useful to them than to someone who has the option of performing a 2 handed roll.The device on my right is my WEEL.This I guess is more for a visual effect than any real practical function.I use it a lot for intro & breakdown sections.I use it to 'introduce' a melody line that is sometimes repeated later in my song.In the near future I will be posting videos with this used to play the entire composition.I have a song where I trigger 'guitar style' picking (arps or broken chords) on the WEEL while my free left hand changes the chords.I very the speed of the turning to simulate the variation in speed like a classical player. I'm tracing down a video of a live show performance of this song.I will post it in the near future as it is a good demo of how I use the WEEL.Thanks for your interest,REF.Orb.
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First offf! You pull off the standing drummer thing as well as anyone I've seen!You look so natural and balanced playing your kit, that at first I didn't think you even had a bass pedal....Very nice!
Also like your LISA and WEEL. I didn't respond when I first watched your vids, because I was waiting ti get/see more info on them. Like how they also visually tie down the kit on the ends with something different/interesting.
I don't know where the tunes are for some of the mentioned in this thread. I'm pretty sure I only saw three tunes before it led me off to other things like 'Andrea' and his drumset. That took a good hour of my day! So, post more links!
If you are already using a vocoder, then you're just a jump from singing. Then you will be the ultimate one man band. I started using a digitech vocalist with the idea of just adding some vocoder and other effects. It can tune your voice to notes, so you can make it change your voice depending on what chord you're playing. Or you can make it just tune you to the scale of the tune. Within a couple years, I wasn't using those modes anymore and was just singing straight into the mix. I really don't do a lot of harmony work with it, because of the risk of sounding fake, but the verb and the detune effect (something used on every recording out there) and the stereo expanding make it a very worthwhile toy. (I mean tool) A funny thought that relates: When I did my TV show/demonstration back in 99, my plan at that time was to add vocal samples through my QSR, just for the sake of getting some vocals. Within two years I had added the digitech, (though very afraid to use it or to consider singing in public) and a couple years later I had ten tunes with vocals to compliment my four hour act. I can't put into words the difference between a solo act with vocals and the act that's just instrumental. So, for all drummers......add some vocal sounds, chanting or digitech corrected or whatever. A little story telling ala zappa, also goes a long way too! Sit around a campfire and play some acosutic guitar drums and sing! :)
Mission Impossible really kicked!!
Vince
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Hello Vince & thanks for your kind words.I've been kind of isolated for a while here in ST. Louis.I had not turned on the power button to my rig for about 3 years!I saw A.M. was having their vid contest,so I used it as motivation to re-group myself.I was not anywhere up to my game,as before when I would rehearse intensely prior to my few & far between live shows.I was using 'dialog',pitch shifted or heavily effected,& vocoding as you mentioned.Sounds like you have figured it out several levels above my attempt.Thought about getting one of the 'vocalist' type processors.I really need to update my effects.(Not to mention my E-MU sounds,but I'm still a 'hardware guy' live).Sure like to hear your 4 hour act.I try to tell people the amount of effort it takes to compose,program,get the rig set,etc.My shows were @max 90min.I got into this forum specifically looking for people like you-my peers.I have 9 vids on you tube@ http://www.youtube.com/orbvroomer.*different browsers don't always start on the profile page-still wondering?Look for the more from orb tab.Only been on UT for a month.Apologies for the poor quality on my vids.As my deadline closed in &the 'free' cameramen,etc. baled on me I had to buy a camera on Fri.,figure it out on Sat & Sun & shoot on Mon&Tues.Posted them Thurs-deadline.By myself-Not part of my one-man-plan!I don't think I even properly entered the AM contest because I posted the vids On YT & I don't think that's a down loadable site.Anyway, I just thought the vids would be a stepping stone in a search for guys like you.Some of what you said here is about the best advice I've ever gotten. *1 note:I don't use a trig pedal.The 2 floor pedals are used for mod etc.All the kick sounds etc are played with hands.Your basic layering.Got rained out of day work today-I'll head over to your link to have a look.People like you make my day! orb.
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Explain the LISA ring. Definitely the Star Trek rig of any set up I have seen.
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I'm here today because of rain also!
Okay so you were playing the bass drum on the six pad. For a bit I thought you were, and then you showed the foot and I musta assumed...
As for singing....you just have to get started! Singing is sort of an ultimate instrument that people react to, and bands are made and die based on singers, while 'sidemen' are replaced all the time. I was always considered a poor singer, and being a drummer, the last one they wanted to put a vocal mic in front of. It kept me from starting for years. Then I started playing around, and found out there are lots of mediocre singers out here that people like to hear. Many tricks, like not leaving things 'hanging out there' and stuff, but the big thing is because we're playing KATs, it's like a perfect marriage with a 'harmonizer'. You can play a chord on the KAT and when the harmonizer is set to that channel, it's the perfect connection. No matter how fast you change, it's on you! Just like you said about the light show.....a person couldn't follow, especially if you have many improvisational areas.
I was wondering why you weren't entered in the contest, but I figured it was timing. I also had much last minute problems getting my old footage captured. It started as a production with editing and even some of the signage just like the one guy did, but the person I hired couldn't do anything. Actually I take that back.....he captured the whole show which was an hour, and the raw footage which was three hours, perfectly. Better than expected etc.! When it came to just taking a couple clips the trouble began. By the day before it had to be sent, it still had hiccups and the volume was way quiet. My computer speakers turned up barely play loud enough to hear.
I'm a hardware guy too. Real sound modules, no sequencers etc.. I did my share of sequencer stuff, back in the 80's, listening to a click and the whole bit. Even played gigs with the DrumKAT with a little sequencing, but of course I put it under my ride/hat with tap/tempo so the computer followed me.
I use a much simpler lighting set than you. mine is only a four channel topaz dimmer, but when I send one single message from the KAT my keyboard turns it into four messages.
I want to mention again, you really pull offf the standing thing. I was in bands that wanted me to do that, and I hated every moment. That was Before KAT though. Anyway, I'm a sitting drummer, and the one element that I've added to my set is a sustain under my left heel. I sort of took some vibe playing experience, and turned it into a coordination. For years my left foot kept time mostly, either eight notes or quarters, and that had to be stopped.
Thanks for the compliments, as they make my day!
Vince
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Thanks for the Star Trek reference.I think the kit looks cool,too,of course being biased toward myself.It kind of evolved over time,but always was configured for ease of playability.The poles are mounted as close as possible to DK & adjacent poles.This is great for the performer,although not so good for the front (audience) view.I have considered a rig more spread out-visually, a plus for viewers but more challenging for the player.I shot the vids from the back/side views so there would be a better view.I don't think I could perform all my material spread out to far-it's just too fast so I probably would have to slow some tempos down.OK now lets talk L.I.S.A. LISA stands for:Longitudinal Infinitesimal Striking Apparatus.Longitudinal:oriented like a longitude line on a globe.Infinitesimal:You can scrape it in a never ending circle (or loop).Striking:well you do have to strike it,right?Apparatus:could have used:trigger,device,etc.-but LIST &LISD sound stupid.Anyway I really like Lisa Simpson's hair!Plus she plays a sax!This leaves us with what do we do with LISA?A couple of posts back I said something, but I'll try to elaborate.You can play it with a single hit/play it bi-directionally-back&forth or up & down/ scrape it in a circular motion for a one handed roll (single sound)/or my favorite:set it on alt. 8 (or up to 128) note mode (DK) and use it as an arppegiato-style device.Just scape @ desired speed & you have a pretty sweet one-handed-harp! See "Bulgarian Dance" song on my YT channel.I use it arp-style in that one several times.Hope that answers your ?. orb.
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OK, Vince I was posting while you posted!Maybe we were in bizzaro-world bands because I wanted to stand & I don't think Jagger-I mean the lead singer was too into it!The thing that is hard for most people to comprehend is I have some kicks & other sounds (usually) on the same pad,but it changes ON EVERY KIT.When I started this style I thought about a completely symmetrical (sound/pad) setup.I wanted any sounds on right to be available on the left.It didn't end up that way,but there is differences in sound locations/pads ON EVERY SONG.A typical way I work might be:1)create bass notes/groove.2)layer kick/snare notes/patterns 3)layer hi hat notes paying att. to accents,openess,etc. 4)layer a synth onto bass pattern-maybe identical,maybe not. 5)add a trig for chords-and they may need a kick,crash or whatever I want.It goes on but you get the idea.I have the ability to layer up to 16 notes per pad (this is beyond the capabilities of the DK @ this point).As for lights I use Topaz,too,I have 4 packs-for sixteen channels.I also am able to turn on scenes,rotate through scenes,or just 'play' individual lights.The Roboscan 812's I stopped using.They are missing DMX channels I need,such as shutter,iris,etc.They have a real bad way of going to blackout.Plus,the 812 is a moving mirror not moving head,really out of date.Hope you found my profile page on TY.I Checked out your site-looks great.Still need more investigation of that.Just yesterday I got my domain.Now time to figure that out.Thanks for your advice/support. orb.
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You have explained what LISA does, but what, exactly IS LISA as a device? How is LISA hooked up? In one piece it looked as though you changed pitch just by drawing a stick in and out of the circle, like some kind of electrical current/sound field was effected. Was that LISA or just foot work below?
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You are quite observant!OK.The 'stick' inside LISA (non touching) is a bit of an illusion.Other elements are contributing to what is going on in that particular instance.I wish it had more advanced functions,but it is simple trigger.I would never FAKE anything!At live shows people would think I was using theremins & such.When asked I would tell everybody what is up.Mostly no-one asked too much.I found at live shows people like a little magic or mystery-it's not like talking in this forum.Being the lonely one man band guy I had to take anything I could get.I would kind of let loose a bit at live shows-lots of body english lined up with modulation of sound controlled by my feet.Walk away from the rig with a vocoded note stuck on-of course the cool part of that is It's not audible until I talk/scat whatever.So I had stuff like this I started doing & it contributed to the act very much.In the near future I will post performances like these examples, as I have a backlog of material with all sorts of things going on.When I made these vids it was going to be for the AM contest & I left most of the 'showmanship' out.Somethings I do live I wasn't even aware of as I've only been on vid a couple times.Other things are a little automatic from habit.As for the hook up of LISA I think you've got that figured out now.If not ask me again. orb. bonus riddle:Why did Hendrix light his guitar on fire?
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Well, showmanship can certainly be something that would add dimensions to playing as a one man band in your circumstances. The lighting would be part of that for you, as well.
If LISA is just a "simple trigger," do I assume correctly there is a piezo or FSR hooked up to it somehow? How do you trigger a metal circle? Now that I think of it, just what IS that metal circle? Did you have to work through crosstalk issues? It seems you could arpeggios all day long on that thing just sweeping the bumps. Harps, anyone?
At first I thought the WEEL was half of a roto tom ring. But it isn't the same shape. Is it the same "showmanship" thing going on when you turn it and get different pitches? All done via pre-patterned composition? Same question on triggering, as well. What is used to trigger signal?
I haven't watched all the vids, but, is there a genre your music is described within? The pieces all have a consistent "sound" to them. But, that can be from the percussive nature of it all.
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OK. Ref ,I admire your persistence! I knew it would eventually come to a time like this.Once I put (LISA) out there it could probably be duplicated by others (if anyone had the desire).It is a kind of an 'intellectual property issue'.I always assumed people could figure it out without my help,so I'll go ahead give you some more info.So short of a schematic or blueprint or such,after this anybody could make a similar device.It is a piezo trigger device.The ring material is aluminum.The mounting system (cross talk issues) I'll leave a mystery for now.I mentioned how it makes a 'sweet harp' above,so good call on the harp style application.Just out of personal curiosity-is this LISA trigger a device that YOU would want to have & use?You seem like an open minded person.Most people I don't think would be so inclined.In fact,anybody else reading this tab feel free to chime in @ this point.I've been attaching piezos to anything & everything since about 1984.After I started using FSR pads I was less inclined to use piezo devices.Onto the WEEL.This one has 'sensors' every 90 degrees.The 'receptor' is @ a fixed point (below).It is velocity sensitive.At this point I'm not revealing this info,as it is probably a little harder to figure out than LISA! It plugs into the DK with a standard cable.I was thinking of using roto toms @ making some horizontally mounted WEELS.I also make larger versions (diameter/size).On larger models I increase the sensors,as the distance between sensors increases.The 8 foot ceiling in my studio prevents size increase @ some point!If I was,say,Blue Man Group,I would make a HUGE one!They might already have something like this as I have not seen ALL their contraptions.I would love to work with those guys!! I picture my one man deal more suited to an approach like theirs than working in the traditional musical vein.I think auditioning for them gets you a 'back line gig' & I'm more of a 'front line' kind of player @ this point!Sorry I stayed there,but my approach might be a little clearer when viewed from this prospective/mind set.The WEEL is using the same alt 8 & 128 modes as LISA.As for my genre/style, I have not figured that out.What you are hearing here is 4 to 8 years old.Even then.styalistically speaking,I'm a bit of a dinosaur.I grew up with prog-rock,art-rock.Always loved bands like EL&P,Yes,Pink Floyd.Also Beatles,The Who,Led Zep.Too many good ones to name all! I'm drawn to the British bands.I will probably go out of my way to compose some more modern/mainsteam music in the near future. orb.
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Dude, you are fifty? Are you kidding? Hmm. Wait, I thought I saw fifty somewhere. Now I don't. Just how old of a dinosaur are you? I'm 54. ELP, YES, Kansas, Gentle Giant, Passport, Mahavishnu, RTF, Jean Luc Ponty, those were the days when musicians really took off and flew. I cut my teeth on that stuff. Blue Man Group do some incredible things. Extreme imagination. To that end I really love STOMP, as well. But that's another subject.
I find LISA intriguing because of the one handed continuous triggering possibilities. I guess I can hone in on it and try to make it out more clearly. Is the ring some stock component for some other thing, like, say, an oven rack, if you know what I mean? Seems to me I have seen a ring like that before, I just can't place where or what it was for. I would like to have something like that in my own set up. I like unique things, and I like making things myself, if I can.
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Yes,indeed, in chronological terms I'm a geezer.Wish I was a weezer.I kept myself young by running sound @ a punk club for 6 years,6 nights a week & 3 to 7 bands a night.I used to do a lot of the new age & atmospheric type of sound before that.I was able to book into that (punk) club,but pretty music wasn't going to work so I tried to develop a little more aggressive & edgy vibe.If I post any of that it might make some sense to you. So we both like prog rock & making things.Why don't you show me something you made?I love to make things out of found objects,but I made LISA.I have zero metal work experience,but aluminum is a great thing to work with.It's soft,doesn't wreck your drill bits,etc.I always buy my 1.5" tubing at the scrap yard.I said something earlier,but there is a cool intersection of junk,electronics (think radio shack) & imagination.That's the intersection where people like Blue Man Group come from.Those guys are my heroes! I just saw earlier tonight my vids were on Alt tv.After the newsletter i didn't see them & assumed I wasn't in.Glad I was wrong! I think those guys had a back log & they are still adding more. orb.
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Another DinoKAT 52 ;) kansas zappa tomita etc
On my video, the second bass pedal is an old jack plane turned bass.....and on an unrelated note: let me tell you, pvc drills even easier than aluminum!
I remember a day in the 80's when RS told me they weren't selling piezos anymore. The guy found a way to order me 20, and RS always had them when I asked after that......but just imagine how scary...no more piezos
What newsletter????
Vince
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DinoKAT. LOL.
The A.M. email newsletter, I believe.
Vince, you have a website with vids of your playing and stuff? What is it?
Orb, aside from the finger drum which can be seen in that thread here, most stuff I have made has been just typical DIY piezo triggers made from various things at Lowes or Home Depot. I'm making more now, matter of fact. Otherwise, acoustic drums, or hardware for acoustic drums, or modifying cymbals has been my pursuit.
I need to check out the new entries posted. I am thinking the final decision will be very close. Like you said, the academy award with no categories. Tough call. Might be interesting to know what people with no experience with edrumming or a musical instrument would say.
I'll have to go back and look at LISA today. It appeared the job of bending the circle's configuration was done very precisely. Do you work with tools for adjusting metals?
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Vince &REF-I can't believe no one else has chimed in on these subjects! We all know the DIY crowd is out there,everywhere.Once I played on a stage with one of those giant-low-hanging HVAC-duct-headbanger deals right above my kit.So when life gives you lemons....I simply duct taped (first time in history a musician used it for it's intended usage!) a piezo to it.I just plugged it into my octapad (pre DK) & used it for my snare @ will.The funniest part was when the first break came & the club manager wanted to know "what other sounds I could get out of that duct!!"After cycling through the 4 sounds I assigned to it he still didn't get it.He thought I some how miked & processed it!!That's the mystery & magic part of it.Bottom line-the guy is completely blown away by the simplest thing (to guys like us) & comprehending the process is not necessary (for the audience).After that I ALWAYS had this ready to go-anything in the club can be a trigger! Just be careful with your heavy metal chops so as not to cause structural damage to the club!RE-LISA/REF--LISA does appear to be fairly precisely formed (hard to see on a lo-fi blurred vid).The one on that rig is proto type 2.I have more now & have mastered a method for forming them very precisely.As I stated earlier I have NO training/experience in metal 'shop',(except of course working on my ideas/rig).I believe it's referred to as American ingenuity. I'm now in need of my first drill press ($99 Lowes) as I'm having too much trouble drilling precise vertical holes.I forgot to mention earlier-WEEL is a found object turned trigger.I go to this place Shapiro Scrap Metals.It is awesome!It is this giant warehouse & you are allowed to scavenge & root around through the place.If you find something you want you can by it by the pound!!Doesn't matter if it is a manufactured product or a metal pile of whatever.There are Boeing (rejects) aircraft parts laying around with paperwork still attached!Never did figure that one out.These places are all over the country,I used to live in Ft. Collins,CO. & had no trouble finding one there either.The WEEL was (aluminum) black & silver when I found it & perfectly matched my rig! OK--Vince--yes PVC is great to make things out of.When the poles came out my friend started making PVC versions (piezo not FSR).Very cheap & easy to do--but a poor substitute for FSR technology! REF--please guide me to the thread with your finger drum-I'm new around here & haven't read much in the forum so far.To the rest of you 'Kat cats' -show us your wares-I know your lurking out there.
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My site is the one listed in my posts. It's an old jalopy that needs to be started over, and hasn't been updated in at least seven years. (some of the dates at the bottom of the pages were or are automatic so don't go by that)...Hard to believe, but when it started there were no pop overs and all the stuff they added, and for some reason the pics don't work on the first page......a jalopy Sorry but no videos. Many audio samples from the 'A Drummers Laugh' album, and a little of this and that. The site is well over 250 pages and has over 250 real audio files though I can't begin to remember what they are. Lots of info on my equipment back then, and my ideas on how to approach 'drumming music'. Examples of orgs I worked with?? Anyway, it's in a free area that's closing down, so I need to do something new or be done with it.
BTW I guess I didn't embed the tune names or whatever so I wanted to let everyone know the tunes: The first one is called 'Something I had to play without you' (two parts, first half,Something I had to play, second half Without you) and the other one is 'Fridge Crystals' (a little phrygian excersize)
Again sorry no videos......not that modern....never owned a video camera......I had to pay someone to capture the footage I used for the contest. That one hour show from ten years ago, is the only decent video of me playing KAT that exsists. Except for vids that surface in the future that people took at one of my few and far between gigs! I do have hundreds of hours of audio, some of which hasn't been touched since the day it was recorded. I'm going to put some time this week into finding some good audio stuff with me singing and playing the new tunes. Just a note: Put much info on disks so years later you might find what you look for. When I started it was simple, over the yeARS I add more and more, but never seems to be enough.
Orb......in the construction biz, a DuctKAT is something totaly different!!
Vince
www.vindrums.com
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REF- I just clicked on your profile-I didn't know REF was Ray Frigon! I already watched your vids,but I didn't put it together.Good technique! Your playing is very articulate! Hey, since we all know your age ( MR. 54) you might as well publish it in your profile.You blew your cover on that one,you DinoChopper! I liked your #4 & #8 'jungle drumming'. I have some similar grooves/sounds to those 2. I used a Roland R8 for like 10 years.Your percussion sounds sound like Roland.Do my 'golden sound man ears' deceive me? Where did you say the finger drum was? orb.
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The finger drum is here http://alternatemode.com/forum/index.php?topic=1572.0
Thank you for the kind words. I'm afraid your ears deceive you! #4 Watering Hole and #8 African Sunrise are done on my Alesis DMPro. I like the percussion sounds much better than on the TDW20. That is the beauty of electronics for me. Going back and forth from set to percussion keeps it all different. I don't get bored. I wish I had more time to devote to setting up new kits and all.
Do I have a profile here? I don't even remember what's in it. There ya go. Showing my age. :-\
The board gets slow at times. At some point others will join this discussion. I think most of the people here are DIYs on some things or other.
I'm making some small PVC/piezo/neoprene triggers now. I may get an Alesis iO for them, so I can use them with both modules. Cables are a complete nuisance.
You have alot of complexity to your kits. Sounds that way. The only thing I would suggest is in the composition area. I keep waiting for something different to happen after 16 bars. And I keep waiting for you to use all those poles to see what sounds they function as within each piece. The poles are the bomb. I hope Mario can find a new manufacturer for them.
I'm assuming you set up two cameras and edited things down? You may have mentioned that and I missed it.
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Orb's Orchestra moves along really nice. Great pace. I still cannot figure out where the basic elements of snare and kick are coming from. Maybe it's just a tiny lag in the transfer on my computer. In each of the pieces I hear alot of sound but cannot quite place it all on the DK. Which, for the sake of visual quality is a good thing, audience-wise. "How do those guys do all that?"
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Wow!! 2 messages before 8 am? (St L time) You MUST be on the east coast.I've been a musician since age 8 & I can't remember any other time when another 'rock musician' contacted me before noon!!!! Do you have a sleeping disorder or something?OK. Down to business.On Orb's Orch the main kicks are on pads 1 & 2.Also on any measure's downbeat,like where a chord or crash might be expected.This configuration is used quite often-Orbit & Bulgarian have the same basic starting point.The sync of audio & video is bad here.(Bulgarian is so far off the kick & snare appear reversed!!) On the Sat. before the deadline I called a vid guy for advice.(Tried to beg him to come out on Sun.) I told him about my camera purchase (Fri.),how I thought I would need a mic input fed from the mix.He asked if I had a higher quality way to record audio,like a DAT to use instead.I said I would just record straight into DP,as I've done many times.He told me we could sync it after the fact.So here's what I did (by myself).Start camera 1,start camera 2, hit record on DP,start playing.I let all that roll until tapes ran out.Camera 1 ran out before 2,so Bulgarian was last & camera 2 ran out before 1.I didn't have the long view on that one.Also,being alone & unable to monitor input & clipping I kept the saturation very conservative.I did have an 'ace in the hole plan' if I did clip.Digital Performer has a multi-record setting.I set up a file I use as a starting point for this.Engage record on EVERY MIDI CHANNEL.Engage record on 2 audio tracks.A midi send on the last thru goes to DP & it sorts all the data onto matched channels.So if I clipped I could 'play back' the midi data & make a new audio recording.I would have re-mastered the audio in this manner to have proper levels,but I ran out of time.10 am on Wed. was edit day with my vid guy.But I can still re-master it if I want.I'll probably just make new vids instead.RE-my composing.There is some lacking in that department! Sometimes I just can't get to 'pay dirt'.That's an art that good composers have mastered.Soon I will be posting songs with a voc mic I use in VERY UNORTHODOX MANNER@ times.For instance,on Bulgarian I do dialog.There are four verses & two choruses.It sounds a lot more like a song in this arrangement.It's title is "Beware of Bulgarians" with dialog.The intro 'melody' is repeated in between verses.Those parts without the dialog sound empty or missing something-which they are in these examples.When I unleash my mic versions my music becomes much 'darker'.It's almost a little frightening! Since this was a drum deal & I didn't want to scare people I left that out.Maybe I shouldn't have.Keep in mind the main venue I could play on a regular basis was a punk/metal style club.Not wanting to put up chicken wire in front of my rig (a-la Blues Brothers) I had to keep up the pace & edge.If you want to, just google the Creepy Crawl in St. L & have a look.They are now gone,but I guess it's up,although I haven't checked lately.Simply viewing that site will give you an idea of the environment I was performing in.My music was/is by no means punk or metal,but I still had to fit in somehow.Poles-we love them I have 14 of those.The upper left was just added & I don't think I ever hit it in these vids
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I'm in Texas actually, and lately sleep isn't something I get much of. I'm up pretty early every day. I think this morning it was 3:30.
I had a terrible hum on my vids. Not sure what it came from. Probably a cable not appropriate for the task. I ran from my board to the camera and just kept the camera LED really low so I didn't clip out. I lost some low end, but it was just a first time thing, so I learned some things I would do different next time. Once I started playing the hum got drowned out. I also noticed on AlternateMode.tv that some of my vids are strange. Lines in them, maybe typical generation loss? And on some of them the sound and picture go out of sync, but then come back. The masters are fine. Just what can happen with file transfer, I imagine.
According to Mario, DrumTech has turned into a ghost town. He's unable to get in touch with them. I hope your poles get back to you okay.
Yeah, I knew I mentioned my age on the vid (my little TK XL promo, a la Bowflex (tongue in cheek). Just through that in, and then wondered if anyone at A.M has seen that Bowflex commercial. If not, I suppose that little gig came across kind of strange. The whole thing for me was to play and have fun, which I did, despite any tests of endurance 30 takes later. If my age is on my profile page, must be they asked for a birth date? I don't remember. I would say most of the videos look as though players are over 40. I find that pretty interesting.
I noticed quite a few entries used multiple cameras. Always more interesting. But ... always more money, too. Ohhhh well. What kind of editing software di you use? I didn't even want to get close to going there. I don't get along with computer software at all. Took me forever just to find a program to burn the DVD I sent in. The files are in MOD, and that is apparently the new curse everybody is crying on newer cameras from Canon, and other companies. I originally wanted to download to youtube, like you, but they do not take MOD files. Not sure what to do. Have to get some special software, I suppose.
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Ditto on the camera/software/format issue.I know midi inside out-right down to the code,but I'm semi-computer- illiterate.I could not get my Mac to recognize the camera (Canon) plugged in-like the manual-Best Buy told me it would work.Matter of fact, I don't even have that camera because I told BB if their geeks couldn't show me how in the store,it was useless to me & my Mac.I returned it on the last day of that option.My vid guy had all that format/upload skill & that's the ONLY thing I didn't have to deal with.He used Final Cut Pro to edit.I did figure out how to import & sync it in DP,but that was a dead end.I couldn't find any way to export or burn it so I'm not sure what the point of IMPORTING it was in the first place.If anybody has advice for us or lead us to better instructions feel free to clue us in..Drum Tech situation sounds bad.If I knew that was going to happen I would have bought even more when I recently picked up 6 more. lucked out on my vid guys work as he traded me his effort for doing 9 acoustic drum tracks for a project of his.That still isn't done,but I've been gearing up to knock that out for him soon.I live in a condo & have to record at my friends house for noisy drums.My vids were done in my basement home studio I built.
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Not to offend anyone, but I hate Texas. Too flat, too hot, and too crowded. At least, DFW is. People here drive crazy, too. I mean crazy. We are leaving this year. Just temporary.
The reason I want more triggers is because I played a big acoustic set up and love cymbals, and triggers go fast. I would love a TrapKAT that wraps around the player. Like sitting into a some kind of space age control center. Put another 20 pads on it. There's never enough if you want sound variations. I played alot of cymbals 'tings' and with electronics it's one pad for one sound - edge, bow, bell. Unless you are playing ecymbals with three zones, but then one is back to lots of objects to set up, which defeats the layout and design of the TK. Soooo .... make a bigger TK.
When I am a millionaire I will have Alternate Mode make me one. ::)
Yeah, I signed up on youtube and have nothing to put on there. I have been to lots of discussion boards regarding this MOD file situation. Most say download this or that, or buy something. LOL. I went to best Buy looking for software to do the job. The floor salesmen sends me over to the geek desk. The geek desk sends me back to the salesmen. The salesmen gives me a program after I questioned whether it would work. Because I didn't have my glasses on me I asked another young guy to read the sidebar of the box. Said right on there it would not do what I needed. As I was on my way out the salesmen, after talking with the geek, sent me home with downloading instructions from Canon's website. Made no sense to me, so I'm stuck with files I somehow manage to burn on a disk once every 5 tries. Don't ask me how Windows DVD burner does it 1 in 5 times. But, I got a few for A.M and a couple friends. Don't ask me why youtube doesn't take MOD files, either.
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The files are in MOD, and that is apparently the new curse everybody is crying on newer cameras from Canon, and other companies.
You might try Googling for "mod to mp4 converter". There are apparently some free ones. Also, http://www.videohelp.com/ is a great place for that kind of info. Some of the best stuff out there is free or super cheap.
Are you using an HD camcorder? I may be dealing with the mod situation soon enough if that's the case.
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Hey Dave. No, I got a Canon FS100. Nice little camera, but if I knew of the format problem beforehand I would not have gotten it and got a Panasonic or Sony, which apparently do not have the format problems upon transfer.
I would rather just purchase some software because my internet connection is often weak and things get messed up in downloads.
I'll check out that link, thanks.
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Hey,Dave thanks for the info & link.The Canon I had was an FS-200 if I remember.Less concerned now about the mic input feature (I only saw 2 like that in my brief search).None of the pricey HD had mic inputs.I will buy an HD when I make my next buy.Seek out a video cat, if possible,for advice.A lot better results than the geeks who like to remind us of their vast knowledge while rapidly spewing out their tech speak in an effort to highlight their genius,talking over our heads.Then they have no ability to answer a simple ? with a simple answer.You know-answers like yes or no or it can't do that!I'm such a novice & don't even know how to start a new paragraph in here! I'm getting better-can now type with 4 fingers instead of 2!!!! RE:belden spaghetti with switchcraft sauce.Snakes & multi-pins work as someone mentioned earlier.I have 5 pin XLR's I have used.You can use 1 cable to input 4 trigs,as the ground connection can be shared.The black box to the left of my snare (midi-kiti) used to be in my sounds rack & I hooked it up with two 5pins & an extra cable (kiti has 9).Make these yourself & bundle it with heat shrink or such.This will minimize cord mess & make set up quicker.Another option is the big multi-pins like the pro sound cos. use.A bit tricky to solder & deal with,but quick & effective.Personally,I like patch bays.I NEVER have any cable into the set that can be stepped on or whatever & trash an input.If that happens with me only my patch bay needs repair & if you've ever had this happen (always occurs during a crucial gig set up) you can simply by-pass the patch bay with a spare cable & start your show on time.
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I considered getting into doing the capture and editing myself, but after about an hour of research determined that like everything else in sololand, there's a learning curve. Too many file formats, and this scheme works with these two and never that one, and etc. etc.. My computer is big enough, but I just couldn't see putting in the time.
REF, I still don't understand why you say we are generally limited with e-drums to one pad one sound...I'm not sure if the TrapKAT does all this, but here goes.....Using a couple links and velocity shift, I can have 12 sounds up on one pad depending on how hard I hit it! Hit a pad and from pp to mf it's a dynamic cymbal, and hit it harder, and a dynamic bass drum enters the sound! Hit as hard as you can and a gong happens along with the cym and bass. (or not) But it sounds like you are looking for a simpler approach. Transpose covers that! You could make one pad to toggle between two pad configurations for the whole kit! In other words, you can change every pad on the layout witha hit, and change it back with another hit. On a more complex note, instead of toggling between two, you can set up a chain of transposes and have 8 different configs. Add a home base and you add more practicality because you can get back to the original config with one hit no matter what step you are on. This has nothing to do with changing kits, this is a transpose and it's done as quickly as playing a single note. So I hate to get all mathy, but if you have a DrumKAT you have ten pads and nine triggers. If you sacrifice one pad for transpose, and one for homebase you still have 17 surfaces with different setups to play. So with the transpose you end up having 136 zones, just casually running through the chain. The thing is: you can have more than one transpose pad!! Add one and that gets you to 256 pads/zones in one kit! You can also link a sound to the transpose or home base, so you don't lose there. So, it becomes a matter of a little extra counting. Play a ruff or a five stroke roll on the transpose and the next hit puts you into that step of the transpose. It isn't as distracting as you might think. An 8 stroke roll gets you to the last step in the chain, and can be done in a quarter notes time. So you have a special chinese cymbal you want for the end of a fill and it's on the 8th step of the chain, you link a tom to the transpose pad, and at the end of your lick you play a nine stroke roll (or 32nds) on the transpose pad ending up with the last note on the cymbal pad!
I love the trapKAT for what it is......take out of case and plug in! Very Simple, but it's not the controller the DrumKAT wants to be! And we are not not limited to one sound per pad in e-drumming
Vince
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I forgot to mention Vince to help us,but he just took care of that.I mostly use my Mapper (midi processor/note re-definer) to handle many similar programming functions as in some examples Vince explained above.Trying to quickly absorb the above post by Vince almost turned my brain into mush!! I can see that Vince is taking advantage of a lot of functions that a lot of us have not taken advantage of.Vince appears to be about a light year ahead of me in that department!I am spoiled a bit because I was using a Mapper with an octopad before the Kat controllers were being sold.I was using advanced techniques prior to the option of Kat & it took several years before Kats were reved up to their current state.Matter of fact I was a demo artist @ NAMM for the Mapper,& I'm trying to place the date of that summer show.It was in Chicago & I think it was around 87 or 88? Mario might remember,because I think that might have been Kat's first NAMM show ,too.It was very interesting-our Mapper crew was trying to figure Kat out & I think they may have been checking us out as well.I was demoing the Mapper using an octopad,DW pedals,DX-7 sounds & an SPX-8 drum machine.(SPX-8 was that the correct model?been a long time!) Our booth had myself & a guy with DX-7,Moog Liberation & such.Whenever it got slow around our booth we kicked out 1 of our 4 demos & created a crowd around our booth! Can't remember each demo,but I remember a 'jazz' set we had.On that one I played swing beats,walking bass lines,vibe chording.That left leads, more chords,etc to be covered by the key player.@ times we sounded more like an ensemble of up to 5 or 6 players-all live!! The average Joe on the NAMM floor was baffled by what we had going on there..Not turning on my rig for 3 years has left me out of touch with more recent advances.I always wanted to 'exploit' these instruments-not just 'play' them!! Now I find myself a bit of a dinosaur wanting to jump into the future once again.I've been missing out on stuff like Ableton Live & such.I've seen you coolkats using this equipment & you guys are blowing me away!!! Enlighten me,please!!! orb.
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Orb Yep stacking and other midi things like that are easy especially when you add things like sound modules like my QSR that will do four samples for each program naturally. (and then that can be stacked 16 more times!) Many other modern modules take this for granted nowadays. BTW there's something REF and I have in common; The QSR and the DMpro are brother and sister modules, and for the money they are still nice even though they're getting old. The pcmcia card is the easiest and cheapest way to have a nice sampler for litle money...I digress; All these midi merg units (like the one in the KAT) are where some real power lies. Orb has the mapper/ midi note redfiner which I'm not sure of the size or capabilities of, but when you start adding up equipment things gets big fast. For instance the DrumKAT has a 2 x 4 interface, in the case of my Cheeta keyboard, that adds a 1 X 4 interface, and my Opcode Studio 64 x interface was 4 X 6. Now I'm a PC guy, but with a Mac this Opcode would do millions of things, which sounds just like your mapper. The funny thing was, the book for the opcode for pc was about 30 pages and the book to use it with Mac was about 2 inches thick! My point is: if you had a mac, this opcode would prettyy much do the same things as the DrumKAt as far as alternate stuff and velocity shift and stacks and all that and that was back almost 15 years ago. Same with the DrumKAT, I haven't discussed some of the fancy updates that later DKATs and Turbos do. I'm trying to keep this just to the basics that were offered from the beginning......this is all assuming that some of the things the first DKAT did, now we have the Trap Pan and mallet K's using most or all of that power.
Alternate Mode provides us with the same power (give or take) that keyplayers have and use. That's why there are certain aspects I like to push, and trust me, every keyplayers uses sustain, and even the very best and most talented players find uses for transposes, and aftertouch is another giant one I push. By the way, by utilizing AT you double your pad layout (for a drummer) so double the math for the last post......the possibilities are staggering.
So now that's out the way we can stop being scientist sand math guys, the stuff has already been invented so
JUST PLAY MUSIC
Vince
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I just read this whole thread and I'm blown away by all the cool things you dudes are doing with Kats, triggers, etc...
really dug the 'Orb' vids....awesome stuff, man.
Although after all this technical talk, I'm having some grey matter leakage from my ears....I had better go lay down now.
;D
oh yeah, almost forgot...I used Magix Movie Edit Pro 15, and it worked ok for $89.00
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Thanks for chiming in "gmbydmit".Also thanks for the positive feedback!! Once again Vince has turned our collective brains into mush.I usually read & then comment immediately,but Vince puts out so much substance in a small amount of space.I'm still trying to absorb his last post,now I'm behind on another one!! I don't want to explain the Mapper & I'm glad no one has asked (YET) .But truth be told,it goes WAY beyond stacks,velocity shifts,etc.By now there are many ways to do various performance set ups we have discussed here.One day it (Mapper) might fail & I'll have to start over.That's when I be begging Ableton Live users & others to help ME!!! HEEEELLLLPPPP!!!!!! Gearing up for research.The WHOLE reason I joined this forum.This chatter is so much more valuable than a 'salesman expert' or even a manufacturer's web site.I always download manuals before considering any purchases.Everybody has a slightly different set up,but with some overlap (Kat controllers,of course).Once when I was in a Guitar Center & asked for a demo of intel light fixtures,the 'experts' scattered away from me like cockroaches when the lights turn on!!! So left alone, I just broke open new XLR cables out of their display,hooked everything up & proceeded by myself. I kept waiting for an 'expert' to come back & say: "hey,what do you think your doing?" They didn't.But if they did, I had a reply ready for them. "YOUR JOB FOR NO PAY- YOU !@$!$%%!@#%#%% EXPERT SALESMAN"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! orb.
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I ' l l t r y t o t a l k s l o w e r
Really i'm sorry, do the examples help?
Vince
What kind of dinosaur is that? I think it's a
Turbosaur!
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So I decide to look up transpose in a manual (in an effort to shorten my explainations, or to see if I am doing some sort of disservice to board with my examples).......so I find a 3.5 Guide which explains transpose on page ten (check it out at home if you have that one) and though I figured out in the end that I do have every transpose example in my music, for about fifteen minutes
It turned my brain to mush
Vince
does that make anybody feel better?
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Vince. DON"T STOP!! We with brain mush must overcome our inferiority,somehow!! It's like synergy.Synergy:According to " Buckminster Fuller,the behavior of a whole system unpredicted by the behavior of any of it's separate parts,or the subassemblies of it's parts".Synergy in music is a technique whereby the last note of a segment of several thematic notes is the first note of the second segment.These segments can be separated,in which case the conjunctive note is repeated.The method is of considerable value in building serial chains,in which the concatenations of adjacent links may be freely dissolved.With this separation of links the function of the connecting tone becomes ambiguous,serving as the imaginary tonic of the first segment or an "imaginary" dominant of the second segment.The specification "imaginary" is important because of the aesthetic differences created by such a split of the chain. WHAAAAAAT??? Just kidding!! I have no idea what that means. Since I couldn't turn brains to mush by myself,I referenced my favorite book for some handy plagiarism!! So for anyone who likes everything about music go get yourself a copy of "Webster's New World Dictionary of Music". This one was lifted from page 524. It's full of terms,history,bands,etc. Just open to any random page & see if it's one that turns YOUR brain to MUSH!!!!!!!!!!! Vince,I kept forgetting to tell you-I have a sustain pedal under left foot,too.Could not function without it.Through that in so your reading wasn't a total waste of time!!!!! take that, Lugdrum- tom -Beat-hosers. orb.
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holy shit
;D
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Crazy. Remote Brain Connection has been linked. I was posting you, while you were me. It's in your new DIY thread. Sorry to punish everybody with that fascinating read! I was just trying to fake 'holding my ground' against the mind-bending tech talk. Pretty good fake,though,wasn't it? Let's see what happens in your new thread.
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My comment about one sound per pad is considering cymbals, mainly. You cannot stack an edge, bow, and bell on one pad for constant playing. Unless, of course, one wants to tweak velocities, but that gets really iffy in a live playing situation and just takes alot of time to program. And for typical drum set playing, I don't want to have to think about striking force just grooving or playing fills. I want to concentrate on the music more than tech stuff. If someone WANTS the sound of edge, bell and bow all in one, so be it.
Also, there is the entire reason someone plays edrums. For some it is to max out every possibility. For others, like myself, it is to replace basic acoustic drums and also throw in SOME of the things edrums can do, tech-wise. For others they are just a replacement for acoustics for one reason or another.
As to my battleship TK, Orb, just flip it sideways and it would fit through any doorway being so thin. And being so light, another 20 pads would not add enough weight to bother me. Although, my entire reason for getting into finger drumming concepts and returning to the TrapKAT is because of my back. So, a certain amount of weight gets into the equation.
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For most players of ANY electronic instrument, most pros included, because of constant updates, and new technology coming at us at exponential speed it is beyond the capabilities of most musicians to keep up with it all and come close to mastering it all. It will always be a minority of people who master the capabilities of these instruments. Once you learn the possibilities then you have to apply it all. Such time to learn and program is way more than most people have, even pros who make a living with it all. When family, chores, errands, and other stuff gets into daily life, it is generally the very tech intelligent, and /or the hermits with no family, or who put family and general life on a major back shelf, who truly get to master this stuff. That has been my observation.
There just isn't enough time in the day.
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I was posting during your post!! Yes,one has to remain highly motivated & dedicated to stay vigilant in whatever your trying to accomplish!! We all have different amounts of time/ effort available to dedicate to our craft. I'm self-employed & I sometimes I am required to work long hard days.After a day, of say, spray painting an entire 2 story house, moving 32 ft. ladders around all day,etc. ,a person has to stay motivated!! Some days I work until dark,come home,shower,eat dinner-by the time I hit the basement studio it's like 9 PM !! Then,when I sit down in front of the TV,it takes a lot of motivation to get up,walk over to rig,stay STANDING for a couple more hours before bedtime!!!!!! Lately it keeps raining & I can't get any day work done.That's the only reason why I've been able to post at all times of day,lately. These rainy days provide an opportunity to work on my craft. But I still have to keep working, as much as possible,so I'll have $ to buy more Kat products!! I don't have children,so that is a definite advantage. Other than that,I can't think of anything I can 'back-shelf' pertaining to the examples you listed above. Will power,desire,motivation - all this stuff comes into play for all of us.What you speak of is a common situation all humans share-no matter what they do .Stay vigilant & utilize any little time that life gives you. orb.
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I put in tons of time all my life into acoustic drums, playing and then making them. With electronics, which I began around '99, 2000, I think age is another matter, as well. I just do not have the energy I once had. Learning curves are rough. I still cannot figure out how to set up this used EMU Procussion module I got months ago. Plug and play, simple programming, maybe get a few more tech things happening and I am good to go. PLUS, I am also trying to learn to read music, recently bought a MalletKAT, and that is another whole universe that is killing me. PLUS, my wife would like me to learn how to play guitar as well. So, the guitar is sitting in the case; because of the Contest I put the MalletKAT on back burner and now I am two steps behind in that. Yeah, motivation. After a day of renovating the house and watching my grandson, about the only time and energy I have at the end of the day is to fall in bed.
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Ditto on the whole age/energy issue.I always fooled around on keys & knew a fair amount of basic theory.Not mentioned it yet,but the 3 years off of time,I decided to up my key/composition skills.I recently decided I was good enough to justify spending $2000 on a Rowhand RD-700 GX. This might sound strange,but I have been learning mostly my favorite songs/artists from the 60's.I can now play about 70 Beatle songs.From memory,maybe about 40.I also used DP seq. to try & play in every part on many of these-drums,bass,acoustic g,el g,orch,perc,everything.All in real time like a tape less studio.No metronome,no quantisizing,etc. Needless to say only ,a few actually sound pretty good.Most as a whole are rubbish (sounding compared to Beatles,of course).I never had plans to use this stuff for a pop gig or anything like that.It was an excellent way to learn about composing.Besides Beatles,there is Floyd,Byrds,Zep,E,L&P (barely) ,Paul Simon,CSN&Y.Supertramp (70's too), & so on.I even taught myself guitar chord voicings on the keyboard.I bought my only sound software, Fab Four,because I like the Beatles so much.It has a 1966Martin D-28 model guitar (fingered & picked samples) in there that's so realistic sounding, in certain applications you would swear it was performed by a guitar player on an acoustic guitar.Anyone who likes the Beatles will love Fab Four software.(from East/West Sounds).The producers did an incredible job with this.It has Ringo kits,processed el. guitars,organ,harmonium,acoustic guitars.I highly recommend this for any Beatle lovers. Any time you can dedicate to any other inst. will benefit you greatly as a musician.You can utilize these skills to produce your own original songs,or just have fun playing songs you like.So it gets back to the time factor. Days are set @ 24 hours,so it cuts away from drumming time. I still suggest you pursue any other inst. ,as time allows.Good luck. orb.
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I have always been a frustrated keyboard player. I love synths. I would really love to be able to learn to read. Right now my brain isn't doing well with it, so I came up with my own number system. That takes time to translate based on how fast I can read regular notation. There are at least 37 different music notation systems out there, all base on people's dislike of the traditional system, which everyone from classical to rock and back have cursed for its tough aspects getting new musicians into their instrument. Thus far I haven't found one that works with my logic level, so I made my own. Works okay with major scales, but once I leave that it'll need adjusting.
When I watch guys like you do their thing on the DKs I really admire the time it takes to program all that stuff. I would get more into it if time allowed. But, reality check.
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Wesley Crusher, you say you want a modern star trek kit, but it seems you want to ignore the required learning, grasshopper.
REF Personally, I also want to concentrate more on the music, and less on tech stuff. but you're stopping me by saying certain things are impossible or uncertain or iffy, just like you said a true drum soloist act can't be done. (if you are right then I have some serious reevaluation to do in my life! cause I did gigs as a soloist) If you say these things to yourself, or to others you know, that is all well and good. But if you say those things here in this forum, I am compelled to give MHO to whatever degree is allowed by the moderator. My DKAT students are doiing VS by the fifth lesson. They start transposes by the tenth. And in the future others will take some of what we've laid out in these past 20 years, and there will be solo drummers. I'm not thinking about tech stuff, I know what these boxes will do! When you dispute what they do, or question musical practicality, I go synergistic!
REF I teach and taught a lot over the years. By the time my students get to the 'chops' you have, they have already mastered tap/accent contrast and dynamics. Taps and accent are used in any music, and on every instrument....The normal playing of a phrase requires taps and accents....two levels for expression. Without taps and accents, you are like a mono drum machine. You are like a first generation robot trying to talk. A song that uses one note! (and it's not a snare???) Even if you are some heavy metal one volume heel in the air pounder, you still have to play taps and accents, or you can't have music. Then you add ppp, pp, p, mp, mf, f, ff, fff, So I hate to get mathy (again) but that gives us 16 distinct levels, that is taps and accents at 8 different volumes. Now you didn't get to where you are without this knowledge. (I know in my heart) So when applying this to e-drums, it's not hard at all to have bell bow edge under one pad. I have them all over my kits. (actually I got a couple that are edge, bow, bell, crash, bassdrum with VS & link ) It's just like when I play my acoustic cymbal (hardly different) when I play the bell, I must hold onto the sticks tighter and play a little louder/harder, and the converse for the edge. If I hit the edge as hard as I hit the bell, the results are unmusical, and probably too loud. And in the case of my hybrid K ride it sounds more like wash and less like a ride! This is a natural thing which requires no extra effort and no extra learning. Striking force is a big part of music and taste. Three things in a velocity shift should not be a gamble to an experienced drummer/musician.
REF so great you have a grandchild!!! good life. Also Procussion is great with fun sounds and plays well with KATs
ORB I never knew synergy could be a musical term! my oxford dictionsry doesn't have it. funny; one of my bands was going to be named synergy rush, but they figured enough people wouldn't find this trendy 80's word would stick, so we became energy rush.
vince
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go pick up: ROCK KEYBOARD by Scott Miller (complete guide with CD) Hal Leonard. Guitar Center had it. There are 8 chapters-classic rock,pop rock,blues rock ,southern rock,hard rock,progressive rock,alternative rock,heavy metal. I don't read music either. A long time ago I learned all the basic chords.It might be easier to learn chords before scales. The finger position of chords can point towards the scales. I 'marked up' the book, since I can't read.I've started out strong,but never made it all the way through.Every example in this book have been used over & over in R&R. Blow off 2 handed playing,but study what's going on. You MUST learn the blues scale. Even if you can't play like all the examples (I can't) you can start constructing chords & scales on your Kat. In that environment, you'll be comfortable playing-because it's your inst.Get a set up going with some chords & scales & guess what? With Transpose you can switch it to any key you like! Don't even bother trying to play in a 'hard key' (on the keyboard) . I also have Supertramp's greatest (a bit advanced) ,Billy Joel complete vol 1(I have not touched yet),Elton John (essential,a step by step breakdown of his styles & techniques) ,and Dark Side of the Moon. Don't let me confuse you-I can barely play watered down versions of Billy or Elton-I could never play like those guys!!!! But if you just start with songs you know & like,you'll pick a lot of stuff up. Pink Floyd is not as hard as I imagined. All the production is what made that (besides the greatness of the music/writing). These are harder examples. When I first was learning chords, it was Niel Young & easier songs. Go to AZ Chords on the web. It doesn't have published looking music (copyright issues),it just has words & chords (which you will have to figure out). & it's free. Go learn Free Falling by Tom Petty. It's like only 4 chords- & it's a 1 part song. You heard right-1 progression.Seek out these gems & you'll be doing tuned songs in no time (if you want). I'll never be able to play Elton or Billy by the end of my life-but I'll be playing SOME of the easier songs.Here is Orb's philosophical approach to music/life. Always choose unattainable goals! If you set your goals as achievable or easy you'll probably succeed.If you set them too high,you probably won't get there,but you will far surpass your easily attainable goals!! I would have never created Orb Vroomer without thinking like that!!! Good Luck. orb.
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Vince, you need to post some video examples of all you are saying. Matter of fact, make a dvd to sell to us on the lower end of the tech scale. Doesn't have to be fancy. Just has to be available. Unless I see you doing what you are stating, it isn't going to click. I have never doubted the ability of the KATs to do incredible things. I do doubt my ability and time to program everything you are saying. And in the end, my use of edrums is not about the thing you have going. Putting six different instruments on one pad and having to play them at six different pressures? No way. I can envision putting a gong on a pad and having to really up the pressure to trigger it, but not the stuff you are talking about. I would really have to see it done. I don't know everything you do as a solo act. I do know with all the solo acts I have seen thus far, the music spectrum is limited by many things. A one man band can never sound like a full band each musician really doing their own thing. It is not possible. Just what a drummer does limits the musical expression of a full band of any kind. What a rummer does in his role is not what other musicians do, in reality. The feel is not the same. The musical expression is not the same. The thinking is not the same. So the one man band edrummer will, of necessity, when the novelty wears off, sound like a drummer playing all the parts. That is what I have seen in all the examples present thus far. It sounds interesting, and some drummers make it look more entertaining or more fun than others, but it has its limitations. It is a novelty of sorts.
The thing Ed Uribe does on the A.M. site is really cool. But when you break it down, it does sound like a drummer controlling the music. It has a drummer's sticking and expression. Kind of like a keyboard player playing drums. Limited. They do it. But it sounds ... canned to me. Somewhat stiff and mono-dimensional. I don't think any kind of technology will be able to get away from that for the one man act playing everything live, without sequencing.
I know what you mean about naming pieces. The things I sent in for the contest all have names. I didn't know how to edit them onto each solo. They show up when you pop the DVD into the player. But names do lend some kind of personality to what you are trying to get across. "Dances with Elephants" was one of the names. "March of the Flutterbies" was another. And they do conjure up images that lend to watching what the musician comes up with to match the name of the solo or piece of music.
Orb, once I get past some things around here I'll get back into music more heavily. Well, actually, we are moving in a couple months, then I have to renovate the house we are going to ... sheesh, I'll never get this gig down. Which is okay in reality. Gives me something to look forward to. I need more time!!!!!!
One thing I have noticed. My wife plays flute, very well. She can join other musicians and just play. I asked her how she does it. Of course, any band I was in never had sheet music, and all the musicians just knew the keys and went from there, but I never had to bother with that. I just had to count. I asked my wife how can we whistle and go all over a scale, not knowing music, but I cannot get this thing down by reading it. She told me not to be frustrated because after awhile I will hear notes coming before they come. It's a matter of knowing the key signatures. And sure enough I was getting to the point where I could see and hear all that happening in my head. I just need to devote time every single day to it. Just so many responsibilities and necessities right now. If I was a gigging musician or doing clinics I would have to devote the time, and Lord willing I would love to be back into it like that again. I think any drummer having the ability to read and play another instrument is way ahead of the game.
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Healthy disagreement is fine by me. Everyone has opinions,philosophical differences,points of view etc.Let's look @ some musical history for a minute. Let's see.......when Bob Dylan broke out an electric guitar his "folk music fans through a fit & decided they would go from loving him to hating him!!! It didn't sound like his acoustic guitar. It didn't have the nuances & inflections of his ac. guit.-RIGHT-it's a completely different instrument. When synthisizers were brand new the symphonies through a fit!! "Our entire orchestra is being replaced with this one guy on a STRANGE instrument,they complained". We have to circle the unions & fight this outrage!!! Keith Emerson was a quite excellent player of piano & Hammond B3 organ. But the guy sure could freak on an early moog!! Funny,but the synth had no resemblance in sound whatsoever to his more traditional instruments....It was monophonic & had NO velocity sensitivity. And I do believe he could play several musical parts simultaneously.His synth didn't have any resemblance to his B3 or piano. Good flamingo guitar players can play rhythms on the sound body,while picking,strumming etc.etc etc.........You want your electronic drums to produce the sounds of an acoustical drum set.That's not happening any time soon,so why do you attempt to do this ? There are many drummers who say "I done likke thum ther eletrico drums,thum dag thangs ain't not soundin nottin likke me skins"....Correct-it's a different instrument!!! Am I hearing you correctly when you saying a HUMAN one man band sounds canned & a sequencer sounds WHAT?? Mono-dimensional ? A human is 'stiff' compared to a sequencer?? Huh?? Of course a one man band will sound different than an ensemble of any size. But doesn't a duo have limitations that a trio wouldn't have? And doesn't a trio have limitations a 4 piece & on & on & on?? If your synth's strings don't sound like an orch's strings,is it then necessary to bag it because it's "just a novelty".Would you kick your key player out & replace him with half an orchestra?? Note to backwards looking thinkers- I can play arps,fills,licks,so fast,so difficult that NO keyboard player could touch @ a live gig!! Are they then reduced to a novelty?? Note: an ensemble of acoustic players sounds different than an ensemble of electronic players. And,funny thing--EVERY SINGLE ENTRY IN THE CONTEST SOUNDS LIKE A DIFFERENT DRUMMER--BECAUSE THEY ARE. I ACTUALLY PERFORMED AS A ONE MAN BAND FOR 8 YEARS! I've already been doing what you think doesn't work.Did I fool everyone somehow? Do you think any of the venues I played @ hired me as a "NOVELTY ACT". I guess it's a matter of one's interpretation of definitions. Here's who I would categorize as a "NOVELTY ACT"--Wierd Al Yank-a -krank (& I love his act ), The Chipmonks,etc. Have you ever been to Branson,Mo? I've never BEEN there but the "BaldKnobbers play there-I don't think anyone in that band has front teeth.Can they not afford dentures? No-but with front teeth the "NOVELTY" would wear off. Have you ever seen "Los Straightjackets" ? They are a 4 piece surf band that wears wrestling masks.They are a kickin band,but masks? That sounds kind of "NOVELTY". By the way,if you HEARD my music,but didn't SEE me perform would you be able to tell it was 1 musician live??? Performing on electronic pads ? If I sent you an MP3 file could you tell if it was live playing or a computer sequence? Could you tell if the data was input on my keyboard or my Kat? Or for that matter,which of my 'songs' would you classify as "NOVELTY SONGS". Islands in the Sky? Orb's Orchestra??? Check out the last measure of "Groove Dog's". Does that tiny riff @ the end sound @ all like a sax riff played by a HUMAN? Or does it sound more natural to you, like a sequencer?? I see the "NOVELTY" aspect of my act not 'WEARING OFF" anytime soon. peace & harmony to all. orb.
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Okay you're almost ready to make a velocity shift with a gong! My work here is done!!
I have to agree with you....for e-drumming the thinking is not the same and the music isn't the same and I hear you to a point. But once you get a big book and add some props have some jokes ready, before you know it it starts to transform. What's happening is just the beginning, someone had to start! And let's face it. there are all kinds of places of success with this stuff that comes way before being a soloist. How about the first time you get paid for playing drums and covering percussion (I can remember my first beer) Then what about when you can add percussion and you can play a little pad or droning synth to thicken up a guitar soloist to make it sound like a band. Or the first time you pull off playing bass and drums for a whole night and get paid for two players. Many successes for the ole drummer along the way. You're working on melodic instruments at the same time..trying to learn...you don't think that makes you a much more useful guy in a band? A much more dangerous drummer! Actually now that I got you to agree to adding one velocity shift to your kits, you are one of us.... Assimilation has already begun Surprise!
Okay, the only two videos on dvd are what you see for the contest. In the future I will try to fix that volume and add a bunch more but right now that's it....but! we're in luck because I might have every example in those tunes. In the first half of Something I Had To Play (first tune starts with a bass drum fishtank) I play a big brass bell of some kind and I use three pads. The first one is an Alt 8 where I played a decending whole tone scale (half step whole step and repeat etc.) when I want it to descend I hit a group trasnpose pad that descends by octaves when I want it back, I hit the home base pad. At one point I'm descending down like five octaves . Thats a total of 40 different notes or 5 times 8....so if you change the bell to toms you're talking 40 toms on three pads.
In Fridge Crystals I use auto transpose on the part where I play the vibe and bass lick and it sounds kinda spacey when it revoloves up and up into oblivion. Again octaves of notes, but in this case instead of going 5 x 8 we are using a chromatic scale (all note) so it's five or six x 13.
Velocity shifts are everywhere. You might not be able to hear it (the sound is so bad) but on Fridge all the polekats are doing ride cym when I stay soft and then a synth sound and then will crash when hit loud and there's a light signal in there too that will trigger a lite when hit hard enough.
Cool names on yer tunes!
You should set up some kits with bass and jam with your wife! With the DrumKAT this is cheatingly easy because we have scales and chords on a page that we can call up in seconds
Vince
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REF you are saying we can never sound natural and do a tune without sequencer. It depends on the music.....here's a tune I did for a while where I covered all the parts and it is exactly the same as the radio version, and this tune was number one for a while I believe. You have to have real audio It's the JJ tune Together Again
http://vindrumsmusic.tripod.com/modern-drumming/vonne-andring.htm
I'm pretty sure most would agree I pegged this one....funny I was using a sequencer with this girl, and one day after putting the notes into the sequencer, I realized, wait I have enough hands to do that! I think this recording was done that first day I figured it out.
I'm thinking a drummer in the future would be better at playing drums and keys at the same time than would a keyboard player......they simply can't play drums well enough!
Vince
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LOL. I knew I'd ruffle feathers with that post. I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone, though.
We all have different views of what "music" is. What passes for multi-million selling "artists" today would not have gotten out of their garage back in our day. If music is a balance or mix of melody, harmony and rhythm, by common consent of definition, alot of what passes for music today is noise. Now, people have come to redefine music, and noise counts as music. So be it.
To that end, as cool and interesting, fascinating, mesmerizing, mentally challenging, and stunning as the one man band concept is, which floats (I never intended to imply it can not), and it being a new genre itself, it will never sound like different musicians playing their instruments. Now to the end that synths do what they do, and I love them, no one would ever say a synth will ever replace a full sized, living, breathing orchestra. But, yes, synths do what they do and lots of people make livings using them. Although, to be honest, as near as I can tell the holy grail for keyboard players is a realistic piano. So, to that end, drummers who want realism from edrums are certainly not alone. I would say the vast majority of edrummers want realism to their acoustic drum sounds and companies keep raising the bar to achieve that standard. And that would also include breath synths, like the Yamaha WX5, etc. Those guys want real saxophones, trumpets, and flutes, etc, along with their synth sounds they have access to.
If I am correct, the whole idea of synth technology was to simulate acoustic instruments, and give someone a wide array of those instruments. Moog came upon his thing and Emerson made Lucky Man come alive. But no one expects these timbres to sound like acoustic instruments. They are electronic sounds, which make up a very large share of current sounds in modern music. There can be no argument there.
While each drummer is different, and even their approach to time can be a little different, they strike their instrument. Because of that, alone, every piece of synthesized music they play will have that nature to it. It creates a limitation. If they want to, or do not mind that limitation in creating the music they play, that's all well and good. But until I behold a one man band playing creative 4 limb drumming, creating the kind of bass lines Jaco played, while doing a piano solo or other instrument solo, a la the very talented people out there, the concept remains a "novelty" to me. Stiff. And, as you say, there are lots of novelty acts out there making their livings. And you and I can go way back to Carl Palmer's days of wearing a hot mask all night, and the Beach Boys employing a Theramin. It all ends up getting a piece of the pie. It's a big world. And I am certain the possibility of playing something a three piece rock band plays is quite doable in the sense of employing simpler musical passages. I just have not yet beheld the one man band drummer pulling off the kind of stuff that involves that interaction of different musicians in a convincing way. It is strike and pause, strike and pause, strike and pause type of sound. Unless a Pad sound weaves in and out, of course.
Guys like David Arkenstone do their thing and it sounds great. I own some of his CDs. And others. They make CDs. They make a living. They may even play out live with all their mechanics and technology. But what he does still sounds like one musician to me. It's a novelty. To me. I do not think the one man band will ever threaten the existence of groups, not that anyone has set out to do that. I know they haven't. They see a new field of expression with new technology. Just as the invention of synths has not threatened full size orchestras. But I do believe the one man band concept will someday crest and reach its limit. I may be very wrong, and it may be a ways into the future, but given human nature, I believe I am correct. Human beings like interaction. We are social creatures. It's why from ancient times to now, in every single society known to man, groups are formed, organizations, clubs, societies, fellowships, bodies of one kind or another. People will grow weary of watching one guy "do it all," or listening to the same. Doesn't mean one cannot make their mark, though.
Ah, well, a little controversy here on the board is healthy, I think. And Orb, your points have not fallen on blind eyes. What you do is very good. I'm not saying it isn't. Not at all. It's very inventive. And for eight years you have made a living doing what you do. Vince has. Tony Verderosa. Maybe Ed Uribe. I don't know much about him. Others out there. One of the guys playing malletKAT does solo gigs for a living. I've watched all his posted vids. Heck, I even did a semi-one man band thing for the contest. I am not saying it isn't fun or interesting or viable in the music industry. I know those who do it are very serious about what they do. As Vince says, even in a band concept, the edrummer can bring alot to the table. But, it will never be able to recreate what individual musicians bring to the table in a band or group, orchestra, or whatever. That is the limitation I see.
No offense meant, at all.
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Vince, I listened to a bunch of things on your site. Not my cup of tea, musically, but I catch your meaning of what can be done. Still, can the one man band pull off what your guitarist did? I don't see how it's possible. Talented guy. Not being into top 40 I have never heard Janet Jackson, so I have no way to compare. If you say you pegged it, I believe you.
Way back when I was a teen Lee Michaels and Frosty had their duo, organ and drums. Today it is Rod Morganstein and Jordan Rudess. Since Lee Michaels I have always liked the idea, though I have never done it. It seems to me to even create the interaction between two such musicians is rather impossible for the one man band drummer. Now, of course, genre of music comes into play, as you say, and top 40 is not the same as progressive or fusion. I realize that.
To the end that entirely new types of music might develop from a one man band approach, I have no doubt. And each omb will have their own sound and approach to composition. Hey, I know solo drums like I play is deadly boring to many drummers. Others get into it for various reasons. Even Terry Bozzio has a threshold of what he can do with four limbs. Same with all the leaders of independence playing. You can only humanly do so much with one hand while the other is playing an ostinato. To me, that is a novelty of sorts. Limiting, and can be taken just so far and it loses something after awhile.
What can I say? Have fun. Travel the road less traveled and see what develops. Certainly Alternate Mode will remain on the cutting edge for this type of endeavor.
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I feel your attitude has changed a bit.....I'm pretty sure by the results, assimilation musta started over a week ago!
To end this end of discussion, All I know is guitar players and keyboard players can do solo gigs by themself. I am a drummer with little to no melodic talent, and can't sing.....I'm not the 'poster boy' for a drum solo act. You'll know that guy when you hear him....he's the guy that studied piano in high school and learned to sing and plays drums a little......I'm the guy that plays drums a lot, and I'm trying to sneak the other stuff in.
My submitted solo stuff was from ten years ago, you should see where the act has come....no, no videos....but I will be doing another album and I'm singing on all the tunes. But I'll never be the poster boy, I'm just a guy that helped build the road to his house! (remember the gravel?)
Hopefully when you hear the new stuff, you'll find it more accessable.
BTW one other little thing.....people have screamed for years that e drums can't do vibes at all., just like you're saying the solo drum thing can't be done...e-vibes totally worthless in the opinion of many. To that I say: Have you seen Mario play vibes on a MKAT? Trust me when I say, not worthless!
Thanks for the effort in checking out my stuff!
Vince
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No, seriously, I have seen incredible vids of malletKATs. Mario does fabulous stuff, and I've seen others on youtube. I imagine pan players have said the same about epans. I will say, though, that edrums will never replace acoustic. Jean Luc Ponty plays a great electric violin, but he isn't going to let go of his acoustics any time soon. Same for guitarists, etc.
Hey, for all I know the future may see nothing BUT electronic devices. Who knows? Technology advances so rapidly. Like the guy Orb posted who makes air drums. Incredible. What comes next? Virtual ensembles, groups, bands, orchestras. There cannot be anything but new things coming, and coming quickly. Right now, though cymbals take a beating, if you ask me, and I shall miss my "family" of acoustic cymbals and specialty sounds.
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Attempts to communicate between entities operating on different wave lengths or frequencies cannot always be facilitated.Some people see the world filtered through 'futuristic lenses' & some people view the world filtered through 'antiquated lenses'.This can result in communication breakdowns. Where some people see limitations,others see opportunity. #1: Just exactly what 'acoustic instrument' was Keith Emerson trying to emulate in his solo in "Lucky Man" ? Also HE STOOD most of the time while performing,thus 'sacrificing' HIS FEET. I wonder why HE liked to stand while HE performed? #2: My performance style is a result of viewing music from the perspective of an orchestral score. I view these 'stacked notes' from the perspective of 'aligned vertical columns' of notes. When different notes occur @ the same exact point in time,I do not need more than one trigger to perform the musical event (stacking technique). This is one of MY basic concepts that I apply to MY programming/performance strategies. #3: With this approach I found that my pedals were more valuable used as constant controllers than trigger pedals. If desired I may still use these pedal as triggers when necessary. All four 'limbs' are needed to accomplish this. #4: Keyboards,'technically speaking' are percussion instruments.So I suppose they would have the same limitations as a (percussion style inst.) E-drummer or acoustic drummer.A keyboard player performs by strike & pause,strike & pause type of sound,like your example above. Same with ANY percussion inst. viewed from that perspective,is it then determined to be a limitation? #4: The Beach Boys used a theremin for 'novelty purposes' ?? I was under the impression they used it for it's unique sonic characteristics. I thought they did it in an attempt to break new sonic frontiers in response to some of the things The Beatles were doing around the same time. #5: In a 'one man approach' I cannot 'interact' with other musicians,being alone.I must search out other ways of' interacting' with sounds,controllers,mic input etc. #6 Have we changed our view of a 'novelty act that wears off' to 'one day this novelty will crest & wear out' type of outlook? #7: stiff? canned?? Still trying to comprehend how sequencers are more 'natural sounding' than human performances using the same sound sources. I was under the impression that sequencers were being used in an effort to sound perfectly performed.Why did drum machines & sequencers offer 'humanizing functions' ? To then sound stiff & canned like as in your explaining?? #7 Just for general information: I have NEVER IN MY ENTIRE MUSICAL CAREER EARNED MY LIVING BEING A PERFORMER. #8: Redundant to mention again,but,One player of any style/genre will always be out performed by ANY ENSEMBLE adding more players to their line-up.
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Attempts to communicate between entities operating on different wave lengths or frequencies cannot always be facilitated.Some people see the world filtered through 'futuristic lenses' & some people view the world filtered through 'antiquated lenses'.This can result in communication breakdowns. Where some people see limitations,others see opportunity. *******Well, that is certainly true. Although 'antiquated' seems a bit over the top considering this side of the communication owns 3 KATs, and synthesizers. But, my feathers remain unruffled. ;)
#1: Just exactly what 'acoustic instrument' was Keith Emerson trying to emulate in his solo in "Lucky Man" ? *******None that I know of. Wasn't trying to say he was. Exactly the opposite.
Also HE STOOD most of the time while performing,thus 'sacrificing' HIS FEET. I wonder why HE liked to stand while HE performed? *******Well, he certainly wasn't the first keyboard player to stand up while playing. You'd have to ask him. I assume it's a matter of getting at all the keyboards he used on all sides of him. Of course, when I saw them a few times he always sat down to play his grand piano. I don't recall saying anything about your position while playing.
#2: My performance style is a result of viewing music from the perspective of an orchestral score. I view these 'stacked notes' from the perspective of 'aligned vertical columns' of notes. When different notes occur @ the same exact point in time,I do not need more than one trigger to perform the musical event (stacking technique). This is one of MY basic concepts that I apply to MY programming/performance strategies. *******Okay.
#3: With this approach I found that my pedals were more valuable used as constant controllers than trigger pedals. If desired I may still use these pedal as triggers when necessary. All four 'limbs' are needed to accomplish this. *******Hence, the limitation of playing full spectrum drums. But if that's okay for you, that's cool. I noticed today, watching a bunch of omb vids, the necessity to keep musical passages going ties the hands of the drummer in not playing fills or whatever, unless they release themselves from keeping the 'music' going. They all seemed to be playing time, exclusively. Not saying that is a bad thing at all. Whatever floats ones boat. But it does speak to the issue of limitations, logically, does it not? Which speaks to my basic concept of what the single person does in relation to a group sound. That may sound antiquated. To me it is just observation, regardless of genre.
#4: Keyboards,'technically speaking' are percussion instruments. So I suppose they would have the same limitations as a (percussion style inst.) E-drummer or acoustic drummer. A keyboard player performs by strike & pause,strike & pause type of sound,like your example above. Same with ANY percussion inst. viewed from that perspective,is it then determined to be a limitation? *******Fair point. Although synths are not percussion instruments. But, is not the articulation of playing melodic keyboards and its final result different than playing drums/percussion? The debate of what a piano is in the instrument family is antiquated. I have seen the arguments on both sides. I suppose the same argument exists for hammered dulcimer, though I have never come upon it. But the instrument family consists of more than keys. And is that not why manufacturers made pitch bend wheels for synths to articulate horns, woodwinds, guitars, etc?
#4: The Beach Boys used a theramin for 'novelty purposes' ?? I was under the impression they used it for it's unique sonic characteristics. I thought they did it in an attempt to break new sonic frontiers in response to some of the things The Beatles were doing around the same time. *******Well, that might have been their reason, historically. I don't know exactly. I don't recall coming upon that reason anywhere. You may be right. But to the general public listening, it was a novelty, was it not? The thermin has YET to have a place in modern music, despite the few players of high regard. I rented a documentary on it some time back. It is still a novelty to the vast majority of people who have heard it. Theremin was a genius. But the instrument is still a novelty to most ears. If you do a goggle on them, there are all kinds of people into them. I almost got one years ago. It'll never be a flute and I except that. And a moog will never be anything but a moog. It does what it does, and not many keyboardists use them anymore, certainly not to the extent they were used. The Moog was a novelty when it came out. Emerson and then others, contributed to its standardization in music of that time in that genre. The Theramin is still a novelty.
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#5: In a 'one man approach' I cannot 'interact' with other musicians,being alone. I must search out other ways of' interacting' with sounds,controllers,mic input etc. *******Okay. Although is that not apples and oranges to the discussion? Or, proving my observation? Sorry if that sounds antiquated. And as you say, the challenge represents opportunity for you and others doing what they do.
#6 Have we changed our view of a 'novelty act that wears off' to 'one day this novelty will crest & wear out' type of outlook? Maybe if you pause & think through your thoughts about approaches before posting, your views would seem more consistent & there by more logical sounding. *******Well, that is a 'time will tell' situation. And my thoughts are consistent to me. One does not rule out the other. I believe it is basically saying the same thing in a different way. Again, I did not mean to offend you are anyone else, Orb. If I spoke too fast on anything it was to say I "knew" some feathers would be ruffled, when I did not know that for a fact. Nor could I assume, not knowing anyone here. I also stated technology keeps changing, and that will change the omb concept, as well. But that does not address the acceptance of the general public now or in the future, does it?
#7: stiff? canned?? Still trying to comprehend how sequencers are more 'natural sounding' than human performances using the same sound sources. I was under the impression that sequencers were being used in an effort to sound perfectly performed.Why did drum machines & sequencers offer 'humanizing functions' ? To then sound stiff & canned like as in your explaining?? *******As I said, to me, David Arkenstone sounds like one musician to me. Big music, but limited by what keyboards do. Kitaro. Stuff done by Yanni without a band behind him. I mean, how many people got sick of drum machines in the 80s? Stiff, cold, lifeless. DEhumanizing for many. Just like much of the music, which musicians themselves admit to now. It all became INDUSTRY and MONEY, not art and music. I'm not saying your music sounds cold or lifeless. Far from it. Lots of energy and dynamics. I am saying I have yet to hear the omb concept pulled off to truly sound like individuals playing music - to me which I also stated. But at least sequencers can free up a single musician to the degree of adding to something, which they could not do otherwise. Someone like Gary Husband, who plays dynamite drums and keyboards, has major understanding of music theory and instruments of today, would still have a rather impossible time trying to do what his bands do, by himself. Be interesting to hear what he came up with if he went that route, though.
#7 Just for general information I have NEVER IN MY ENTIRE MUSICAL CAREER EARNED MY LIVING BEING A PERFORMER. *******Okay. And that was mentioned in one of your posts, wasn't it? Slipped my mind. You paint for a living. Would that everyone who loves music and plays an instrument could follow their passion and make a living at it. I doubt 2% of the world population make a living at their passion. That's a sad thing, really. Leaves most of the human race never fulfilling their true potential.
#8: Redundant to mention again,but,One player of any style/genre will always be out performed by ANY ENSEMBLE adding more players to their line-up. *******Right. So, just why HAVE you taken offense at any of my comments?
#9 I would NEVER wan't to offend ANY PARTICULAR PERSON SPECIFICALLY.....BUT..... Are wind instrument players 'LIMITED' by the fact that the only technique by which they perform is : BLOW-SUCK-BLOW-SUCK-BLOW-SUCK Huh?? *******Most definitely, if they tried to be a omb. And I have heard some great wind synth players. My wife has a WX5 set up. Of course, even their instruments are limited to single notes. So, yes, are they not limited? They could not hope to come close to what you do, unless, I suppose, they chained a dozen modules together and programmed every single one to different notes for chords and all. But even then, the percussion would be a lost cause. They'd staccato spit themselves to death.
When two parties engage in a 'pissing contest' there is never a winner. All you end up with is a couple of losers wallowing in the puddle of stench left in the wake of these ill advised activities.*******Well, that was kind of strongly worded and not even close to my intent or attitude of communication in this discussion, Orb. C'mon now. I am obviously not trashing what you or anyone else is doing with their KATs and their music. My observations are just that, observations. I just posted on another thread a link to a guy on youtube using his DK in a omb piece of music. Mercy. I am not trying to start a range war here.
Final thoughts: Sometimes Kats are like cats. One strays into the 'common areas' of other cats', become protective of their territory,turn sideways,puff up their tails,hiss & sometimes as a last resort attempt to claw each others eyeballs out. Luckily,it usually looks & sounds a lot worse than it is. Un-ruffling my feathers as I wrote this. orb. ******Like you stated at the beginning, sometimes people see through different glasses and have reactions to things because they see red, not blue. I certainly have no territory to protect. I doubt anyone else here does, either. If someone wanted to breakdown what I do and state its positives and negatives, that's cool. It isn't as though there aren't plenty of flaws in what I do. Glad your feathers un-ruffled. I have honestly enjoyed this exchange. Peace.
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BTW, I should mention I am a relatively new guy around here, too. I used to bounce in and out years ago, but not until recently have I been around most every day.
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Again,we will enter the world of music from a PHILOSOPHICAL AAAANNNNDDD A FACTUAL point of view.
I will make every possible effort to separate the co-mingling of facts & opinions. It might not be completely perfect,but I will try to keep fact (F), separate from opinion (O).
Since the theremin has been mentioned a few times in here,allow me to elaborate on some common mis-perceptions .
(F):Theremin (thereminovox) : Early electronic melody instrument in which hand movements interface with electronic sound waves, allowing for the spatial control of pitch & dynamics,invented by Leon Theremin in 1920. ( Webster's NWD of Music p. 541).
(F): He was a physicist,astronomer,cellist & studied music theory. At Petrograd Physico-Technical Inst. was director of it's Laboratory of Electrical Oscillators (1919). Demoed a aetherophone -proto of theremin,there. Therenmin (1920) was demoed for Lenin, who was convinced that the electrification of Russia would ensure the success of communism.
(F): (1927): demoed in Germany,France &US. Pat. in1928. Presented @ Carnegie Hall ,ensemble of 10 (1930). First electrical symph. orch, conducted by Stoessel incl. theremin fingerboard & keyboard insts. (Carnegie 1932). Most famous student (& best player) Clara Rockmore. Also invented rhythmicon capable of playing different rhythms simultaneously or separately (conceived by Cowell), & an automatic musical inst. for playing directly from specially written scores (constructed for Grainger). (sound familiar??) (like MIDI ? )
(F): W/ theorist Joseph Schillinger est. an acoustical lab, formed ass. with various scientific & artistic members (Einstein,amateur violinist).
(F): Einstein passed on the op. to study the relationship between music,color,& geometric & stereometric figures geometries.
(F): Experiments by Stokowsky trying to effect a sonic increase among certain insts. in Phil. Orch. (esp. DBL. basses) abandoned with complaints of deleleterios effects on their abdominal muscles, perceived to be from sound waves produced by theremins.
(F): (1939) return to Russia,difficulties with Soviet gov. & detained. Forced to research by Sovs. & studied electronics & sound.
(F): (1964) Prof. of acoustics Univ. of Moscow.
(F): (1989) allowed to travel to Paris & Stockholm
(F): (1993) return to US in documentary film "the Electronic Odyssey of Leon Theremin"
(O): Very few players have mastered the theremin. Was the first synth. Is misunderstood by most (see above post).
(O): Not as significant as Cristofori's "gravecembali col piano e forte" (Piano)
(F): (1711) Cristofori had 3 built. His mechanical action is almost identical to our present version.
(F): Go to (web site) Metropoliton Museum of Art,NY. where 1 of the 3 is on display for view. sorry-no link.
(O): A 'VERY vague' comparison might be: Critofori VS. modern grande piano, is like theremin VS Moog, is like octopad VS. Turbokat. (very vague).
(O): There are a few players today who CAN make beautiful music with a theremin .(hard to find,but do exist.)
(O): Lack of widespread use,competent players,etc. does not reduce this HIGHLY SIGNIFICANT INVENTION TO A NOVELTY.
(F): Ignorance of one's understanding does not translate into reducing it's importance in musical history,or reduce it to a 'NOVELTY ITEM'.
(F): Attaching words & labels to these things does in no way reduce the significance.Widespread commercial use does not reduce significance.
(F): Thinking in a manner as examples described above is what leads to modernization of current devices,as well as new inventions.
(F): This information is in: Webster's New World Dictionary Of Music. Copyright C 1998 by Schirmer Books
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(F) nov·el·ty
Pronunciation:
\ˈnä-vəl-tē\
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural nov·el·ties
Etymology:
Middle English novelte, from Anglo-French novelté, from novel
Date:
14th century
1 : something new or unusual
2 : the quality or state of being novel : newness
3 : a small manufactured article intended mainly for personal or household adornment —usually used in plural
4 : something (as a song or food item) that provides often fleeting amusement and is often based on a theme —often used attributively
(O) Your feathers seem still ruffled. Orb. I feel badly about this. It's just music, Bro, whatever that means to anyone. I am not certain how my stating the term "limited" brought things to this point, seeing I have complemented you, commended you, and overall applaud your efforts. So, I will state again - TO ME
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It is always nice when we do not dispute the facts (F). That definitely can cause arguments. It doesn't appear you & I are in dispute of the facts here,as I don't see you challenging my (F) definitions,as well as, I will not dispute your (F) definitions of 'novel' .
The (O) opinions are interpretational, (I don't know if that's actually a word-the spell checker doesn't seem to like it,but I think you understand the meaning I intend ) of course.
By your def. #1: new & unusual seems to be 2 completely different meanings (not your fault,it's just the authors who did made that deduction).
By your def. #2 : being novel or newness definitely sounds like the first part of #1,but not the second part of #1, (once again,not your fault,it's the authors multiple meanings that can lend to some confusion).
By def. #3: right up to & through the word "personal" it would be a quite accurate description of LISA,if it continued on to say: "personal usage" instead of "personal adornment". LISA is definitely a device I use in a practical manner (O) , to me. In my instance it is definitely NOT used as
an "adornment". (no dispute with YOU on that,either).
BY def #4; (I should maybe have said authors,not YOUR on that these examples) I guess that seems accurate,(minus the food part), & I would hope not fleeting.
So I do believe we have agreed on our examples of definitions..
I will ALWAYS respect your's & everybody's (O).
A theremin is DEFINITELY NOT NEW--however calling it "unusual" is quite accurate.That's what I thought about trying to view the 2 words/definitions as synonyms.
So I would say "Can we agree to disagree on any matters of (O) ?. My answer is "YES" to that .
A car can have antique plates after 20 years,so I'm not sure if a Kat is exactly "NEW",being around for so long at this point.So I don't know if people consider Kat products "NOVEL" by definition.I certainly don't view Kat products as novel. (O).
My mistake (I will thank you for alerting me to OTHER def.) --was in my head, I perceived "NOVEL" as ONLY maybe def. #3 & #4 .That was MY fault,not yours.
Improper interpretation by me made it sound like a put down,which I do not believe was your intentions,after closer examination.
Not productive to go in circles over (O). I don't see any sense in that.
My LISA trig. certainly is not in a category with the theremin or Moog or Kat. That would sound completely ridicules.
I heard you mention having seen the documentary on the theremin. I thought (O) you were a bit dismissive with you thoughts (O) on that.When you look @ Leon Theremin's resume,or his role in the history of musical advancements,he made many very important breakthrough in many areas.
Also Moog was very much like that,maybe even more so. I do not interpret Moog a novel item either.(O).
Until today,I never read the entry on Theremin.When I came upon the 'rhythmicon',mentioned,it wasn't referenced in my book.If anybody knows please advise.
I'm still trying to find out if it was some mechanical device (like a player piano,or a mechanical music box (circa 1200,perfected shortly after the invention of clockwork). Where the yellow face has been inserted,it appeared to me the explanation of a rhythmicon sounded like it could be one of the first versions of a device that had some way of being 'programmed' or read some type of a 'file', in a different/parallel sense of our current standard format (MIDI). This I must now investigate further. WOW. this isn't a waste of time ,I learned something new here!! Also the "playing different simultaneously or separately" reference, sure started to sound like advanced functions of Kat or 'note stacks' or something! Maybe I'm way off base,but I'm determined to investigate that further.
Closing thought: As stated above : Can we agree to disagree on matters of (O) ? My answer is "YES". Am I correct in assuming YOUR answer is "YES", as well ? waiting for a reply. Apologies & peace to you & all . orb. Version 1.2
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Rhythmicon was called the first drum machine, Theremin was commishioned to build it. If I remember right, a spinning disk with holes was the file type.
I already told you my feelings for LISA. Need.
Vince
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So I WAS on the right track speculating about the rhythmicon. I guess I'm not as dummm as I loooook. Can you believe that there were perfected clockworks & mechanical music boxes in 1200 !! These facts completely BLOW MY !#$#$@$%^@%^* MIND !!!! orb.
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Indeed, agreeing to disagree is always agreeable to me.
You know, if I could do what you guys do, I would do it. And I would have some fun. But, the way I play drums, the way I interpret the music through the instrument, would be limited. I would be a different musician. For me it would never rise past being a diversion or 'novelty' as a personal endeavor. Although I'm sure Vince would love to convert my thinking on that. ;D
The "one man band" concept goes way back to the 13th or 14h century. By definition, I believe it was and is a "novelty." This does not mean anything other than that. It isn't a negative, by definition. Perhaps the word is interpreted more as a clown act by some in our day, but that is not the history. The first people who tried to a play flute and a drum at the same time were serious about their endeavors. Every person who has built upon the concept over the centuries has been serious about pulling it off, even carnival performers. It's a very tricky thing to do. Requires alot of coordination. What today's omb does is, of course, light years from what previous people have done. 20th century electronic devices make it far more developed and complex. Yet, the concept is the same. One man - many sounds - all at the same time. The very fact the the omb has been around for six or seven centuries testifies to its NOT being 'fleeting' as it were. Still, it is not something that has become a normal or standard approach to music, and time will tell if it ever does. Certainly MIDI has changed things dramatically, and skies the limit for those into the concept. I now own a TrapKAT, an old DrumKAT, and an old MalletKAT, and a handful of sound modules. Logically, I suppose it would be possible to do some incredible things with it all. But, for me, it would take away from what I do as a drumist. Getting past that aspect perhaps I am being too closed minded.
This is one of the reasons I wish there were many, many more video examples of the omb concept. Alot of what I have heard thus far (not all, but alot), as far as drummer/percussionists (not new age keyboard artists), has been either recreation of ancient or cultural drums and percussion, or kind of spacey stuff. The Ed Uribe piece is certainly a more traditional piece of music. Akira Jimbo does traditional fusion and show tunes, albeit with his combination of acoustic and electronic set up. Some of the stuff Vince has shared off his site has that element, a la Janet Jackson, and some of Orb's music has it in there, like Islands, etc. Being able to sound like ten percussionists is really cool, and being able to sound like an inter- galactic tech ensemble can be interesting. New forms (or revisited forms) of what humanity calls music comes forth all the time. Who can know what a omb player will come up with tomorrow? I just have doubts of its ... I don't know ... ultimate staying power or growth beyond novelty? Perhaps KATs will change all that in a major way, beyond the steps already taken. Time will tell.
My thing is ... Play On.
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Here ya go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXMuWi0dUBc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_man_band
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i know you're having fun tweaking buttons. (here in the forum) I haven't chimed in on the novelty issue...yet....
I hate being considered novelty. On the internet when I started my site, many places insisted on calling me a novelty, and I hated that! I want/wanted to be in with the other solo acts, the guitars, the pianos, the midi wind instrument players with their sequencers. But like I said before, I'm a drummer trying to stretch...if I play every song I know for you...maybe 40. Some of these talented piano and guitar and sequencer players can play like 4000 tunes, and fake their way through another 1000 or so. That's the first place I chalk a strike. Then I have been strangly adverse to using loops and sequencers. So I've made this thing, and sort of forced it into the novelty range.....I still hate it, but I'm worn down after hearing it since the beginning.
But someday, someone with a strong voice and good melodic background will come along and will take these primitive rocks and e-stones we've been working on and they will be a soloist, and they will be allowed to play with the other musicians in the soloist catagory.
i liked the omb example REF, but if that motha can't do Mission Impossible on demand, then he too is a novelty. (kidding big time!)
REF I know in my heart, that we'll see you stretching on next years vids! Maybe you won't be a solo act, but you'll be stretching. And you get the designation: 1 of 1
Vince
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I think I must have interpreted it as your 'clown' example-mistakingly-so to no fault of your's, After re-establishing communication it is much easier to clear up what you meant. Nothing productive about nit-picking down to the smallest of details,like I may have started to do.You can probably understand,now ,how it rather infuriated me thinking that way. I've put so much effort & years into my craft, & I felt be-littled by it.
You have a pretty good understanding of what it takes to program & perform in such a manner,since you have this gear & understand the capabilities of what CAN be done. A lot of my synth sounds have been meticulously edited.If you take a Proteus module out of the box your unlikely to hear many of my sounds.I'm not going to tell you to become a synth tweaker, like me.Heck,I hate to do it--it's highly time consuming.
I still think you should consider adding ANY of even the smallest amount of new elements into your drumming. The pieces I liked of your's were very similar to grooves I have used as starting points. You are already doing 'tuned' type playing in some of those examples & you have a clear understanding of phrasing & being able to make it more interesting than just a bunch of really fast rolls & other 'drum solo guy' things. The thing about doing drum solos is this: they are really only good for a small segment of any show. That's why most 'drummers' have to be in a band type ensemble of some sort. Guys like Niel Peart & Carl Palmer can do 20 or 30 minute drum solos,only because of their greatness & most drummers (almost all) could never pull that off.After about 2 min. your wife might say something like "I'm going out to the lobby ,do you want me to bring you a soda when I come back?" " When I hear the band start back up I'll be back".In fact YOU may even go out for a break,too!
If you still don't want to change I can easily accept that fact.I would still believe you might be missing out,but I wouldn't be bothered ,
or hold it against you. Maybe I could let you hear some MP3 files of some 'jungle drumming' as I call it, & you would see some EASY elements you could add to what your already doing.
People can be intimidated by the complexity of it all.Just remember--I didn't all of a sudden piece my 'Vroomulator' together all @ once.It was more of a slow evolution.You probably did not buy all your controllers on the same day.You slowly built up your rig, I'm assuming.Same with my set ups & 'songs'. I piece it together more slowly.The longer I worked from my established methods,the easier it became to more quickly build complex set ups.
You could take what you have now & EASILY make it sound similar to say, a movie soundtrack. The hardest part is ready to go.
Let me tell you how I started Orb Vroomer. It was basically a DARE !! I ran my mouth off about how I could do this & how I could do that.Some people got tired of my TALK & said "shut up & DO IT ,if that's the way you feel" !!!! So I did. And now here I am. Neatly groomed & unruffled. orb.
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Ahahaha. That's priceless.
Well, the entire idea obviously intrigues me or I wouldn't want to watch all the vids there are out there. And yes, I do feel completely and utterly overwhelmed by all this equipment, which is why I am about to purchase a set od DVDs to learn how to play acoustic guitar. Something grounding about acoustic instruments. And hopefully I will learn things about theory to help with overall composition. Heck, I am totally frustrated I cannot figure out how to make this EMU Procussion work. Pretty cool sounds. I also have a Proteus 1 and a Proteus 2 I got off ebay (which also find dead brain space), as well as a Roland JV1010 which is easier, and a Korg X5DR which I love. Recently I got a Kurz PC2R for the malletKAT. Love that, but it is much more difficult to understand than the PC88 I had some years back. Then I have my TDW20 and the first synth I ever got, my Boss DR 330, which is really easy to use. Lots of learning curves though. Tons of manuals. I am still trying to understand how both the malletKAT and DK work. Right now I just plug and play. It is literally all I can do right now. I managed to program notes on the DK for the contest vids. Otherwise the thing is a mystery to me. I have not dug very far into the new TK. I just set up different kits, but no note stacking or anything yet.
I remember when I got my first computer. Bought it used from someone. It say on my desk for three months untouched I was so intimidated by it. Now, I am able to do publishing programs, etc. Still much, if not most I do not understand, but I make it work. I am fairly intimidated by the KATs and some of the modules. I put it all together so my wife and I can ultimately do some playing and recording. She's having a real difficult time with her WX5. So, it's a territory that is not easy for us.
This is why someone needs to do some DVD tutorials of the omb concept on KATs. As I said, my wife loves Pans and even mentioned me getting a PanKAT. Man, I would love that, too. That's in the future though. I have so much on my plate now with the rest of this stuff. But if someone made a set of tutorials on how to get some basic things constructed in the omb field, I would certainly get them and attempt to apply the knowledge.
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Now we are getting somewhere ! #1 don't sell yourself short !! When I watched your videos, I would wonder: A) what was that cymbal sample ? that sounded cool. b) I wonder which module that was? c) what are his effects ? d) I like that pattern,good phrasing d)When is he going to use the DK ? e)this guy is clean & articulate f)I can't quite make out what those units are to his left g)Is that a mallet Kat over there almost in the shot ? h) Is he going to do more tuned patterns ? i)from the sound of it, is it tuned ? or just a whole lot of toms ? j)Is he just gonna kick into some regular beats & fills ? k) does he play in a band right now ? l)Doesn't sound rusty or anything.....He must play often....... I could keep going,but I haven't viewed the AM site lately & can't remember everything from all your entries. But I remembered a lot I liked....( This is orb V.2 or probably V.3 yesterday, orb more likely would have told you " I didn't like ANY of your stuff". Stupid how anger can alter our personalities & make us lie & do things we normally wouldn't.
For Proteus,or DK I could help. Just give me some ?'s & maybe a link to a manual (busy work) . Or just tell me what functions ,on what pages.Vince certainly seems like a helper guy. Just because guys are doing advanced stuff doesn't mean they can't guide you thru some basics. There are MANY, MANY functions I've never used on my DK. I just use what I need, until I need more & then add on. I bet every other guy in the contest was thinking the same way I was above while we watched each other.
I'll blow my 'genius' status with this 1--- I didn't even use e-mail (until this forum..browser problems..no one to help me) @ all & I've had my current Mac since Nov. of 2005 (third 1..,a couple of hand me downs). I've had digital performer & macs since about 1990. I can do a lot with DP because I've had versions forever. But the manual is 1000 pages long,filled with functions I've never used.Like my DK I use what I use, until I need more. I'm not a computer guy. Lot's of people are like this--they are good at what THEY do.Just like you ....sound familiar ?....
Guitar is a better choice than keyboards, for skill level. Beginners always can play tunes quicker than a key player.I was playing a while back ,but I have some numb finger issues from guitar -- but I can play my DK & keys forever with no problem. Is not a callous deal . Some type of work related deal that gets more stirred up sometimes. So.I do what I do--so-- I taught myself guitar voice-ings on my keys.Bought Fab Four software (only comp. sounds I have) & started playing a 1966 Martin D-28 guitar (sample) from a keyboard. It sounds awesome--incredibly dynamic when played correctly. Get a chord book @ GC & it will have 1000 chords & cost about 15 or 20,don't recall. Go to AZ Chords on web & down load word & chords--you don't need the finger charts because you have the chord book & you'll catch on with just ,.Am..F#..C7...etc. look for songs you know & like..find the easier chords to play & then find songs without a lot of changes...there everywhere..I said earlier learn 'Free Fallin" by Petty... 3 chords... 1 part ...w/ a small breakdown that still hardly changes...I'll bet YOU could play it on YOUR Kat !.It's not as hard as you think. Lucky Man has 4 chords .don't try to pick it like Greg..just strum & have fun...Verse--G (G 9th),D.....Chorus--Am,Em,D ....these songs are everywhere..you don't have to play it like the artist..it will still sound good strumming along.. (there are,I think, 2 acoustics on it,just trying to keep it simple).
Is there a more out of control thread like this in here anywhere? YT Videos....What? ....Here I am, a 'drummer' mainly...telling another drummer a method of learning guitar ? What ?... theremins analyzed--in detail (perpetrated by me, to make a point )...in a e-drum forum.?.....this thread keeps morphing....I can't control it as well as my kat...I have NO idea where this is leading...
As for learning modules,changing modules,we ALL hate that . I changed from an R-8, DX-7,Mirage,octopad to a DK turbo ,Em-U XL Turbo,Orbit (like the sound of that module ! ) ,Korg MS2000BR... all my same (early) songs...have to redo all the sounds on every map..every layer....every DK song...I HAAAATE that ! & when the current units fail, more changes...all over again..So I have a lot of material .....songs I seq..play...guitar songs ... But Orb has probably only 2 hours.....lost songs...ones that never got reprogrammed....not enough time....sound familiar.....gotta go to work....I'm too .......
tired tonight....get up early.....ever felt like this ?
If it wasn't for my video guy baling me out @ the last min....sound familiar.....grand plans....&... all he did was edit/format/upload......tasks I can't do...like you maybe ?...sound familiar.... I still had to tech 2 cameras & man the audio level all by myself...that is NEVER part of my omb plans.....With my light show I had to bring a tech --just to help set up & tear down..I teched everything....not enough time ....sound familiar....we talked about this earlier.....anybody else reading out there feel this way ?....
still waiting for someone to tell me how to upload pic. files..Hello..."Is there anybody in there...just nod if you can hear me....is there anybody home ?..come on now.....I can ease your pain..& get you on your feet again....Relax...I'll need some information first...just the basic facts....can you show me where it hurts ?... ...Aaaaaah.... aaah.... aaaaah -- aaaah....aaah...." by Pink Floyd...."Comfortably Numb".....wish I had their talents...I'll never come up with anything that good by myself.......you will be able to play that song---Bm,A,G,Em,----A,D,C,G,C9...It will never sound like Floyd..BUT-You can play it & it will sound good..people will recognize it....simplified....Except for a couple books I bought--it's all FREE...& out there waiting for you !
YOU CAN DO IT !
orb.
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I think this is my first reply I've made to myself,but no one is in here,yet today,& I had a couple more points to make.
Guess who I ADMIRE most in the contest ? Think you know ? I'll bet you don't !
I'll tell you...Kent Arnsbarger ! Why ? NOT because he has,probably the most natural sounding kit. NOT because he is also an excellent drummer..What,then ?
He was doing his thing when a GIANT ROAD BLOCK nearly stopped his career. Did he give up ? NO ! Did he make excuses ? NO ! He found a way to carry on.
When he held up his injured pinky, I thought we were going to see a one handed drummer ! I was ready to freak ! Thankfully,that was not the case.He @ least recovered enough to use his hand again.But he played through it,when he didn't have his left hand working. He found a way to make it work. With his talents & motivation,he found a way to pull it off.With support from his band (I'm going to assume a few issues here),& his efforts he pulled it off. Like Rick Allen (who he mentioned),he had to use his ingenuity,along with technology to accomplish what he did. He was playing songs that are familiar to most people,so he didn't have a lot of lee-way there.Just like Rick. & just like Rick,the people @ his shows knew what it is supposed to sound like.The fans @ a Def L. concert knew what the songs were supposed to sound like ,just like @ his gigs.Not much wiggle room. & like the fans that shelled out ticket $ @ Def L. concerts,there is a certain expectation of what they want to hear.If he couldn't pull it off it would become obvious. & being able to play a set, or half a night, before dancers up close SAW what he was doing,no one could tell by LISTENING ! Incredible !!
He may have lost a couple of fills.It was not the same as when he was 100%. But compared to a omb,his task was harder.I play mostly my own songs,so no one has anyway of gauging/comparing it to familiar music.No one would know if I played the wrong arrangement--they never HEARD it before. (*The reason I always played a couple of covers is to let people see what could be done by a omb.)
HE didn't make excuses.HE didn't give up.HE worked thru the road block in his life.It wasn't easy.It can't work for everybody.Some people DO have to give up.
HE didn't give up.HE didn't quit.
That what I admire about his accomplishments the most.
That should be a lesson for all of us.NO excuses.Do SOMETHING. At least TRY something.
Maybe you noticed, by now, my metaphors,& song lyric references ,etc.(obvious by now) .If I can use them to make a point, I do.
So for everybody reading this : I'll use a lyrical metaphor easily understandable by all :: AC DC.
FOR THOSE ABOUT TO ROCK !!!! ...... WE SALUTE YOU !!!!!!!!
I salute you,Kent !!!! We all should. You story should be inspirational & motivational to everybody. YOU ROCK !!!!!!!!
Use his story to make yourself TRY harder--whatever your goals are .
Never give up !!
Always try to be better than just one person. & that one person should be YOURSELF !!! Not somebody else.Not apples & oranges.Apples & apples.
If Kent can overcome it,what's your excuse ? Better have a bigger problem than him, if you think YOUR problem is what's stopping you!!
The name of this thread should have been something like: Philosophical Viewpoints Of Art,Music,Performances, & Approaches from different Perspectives.
That wouldn't fit in the header,though. & besides ,it's too late for that.
There are always only two choices: Carry on or give up. Nothing else.....
Philosophically speaking, yours truly. orb.......now.....if I can just get to my lighting thread......
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The Video I sent in to AM is just titled TrapKAT XL, and I basically did it from the perspective drum set soloing and percussion, and used different sets throughout. The DK was supplemental. Actually, I was going to make -try to make- my own multipad controller when I saw the DK on ebay and won it. I basically wanted the extra pads for sounds I cannot fit onto the TK. The idea of using it as a omb controller never became part of the process. BUT, in the process of trying to get it to work with the Procussion and failing, I unplugged it, hooked it up to other mods, didn't like what I had to work with, and ended up hooking it to the little Boss 330 and stacked a couple sounds together for the three or four solos I used it on. As a melodic instrument the segues worked in pretty well.
Indeed, drum soloing and big drum sets are something I have been into since Ginger Baker. "Toad" is still, to me, a masterpiece of soloing within the confines of someone's style. Baker definitely has his own style and sound. When Disraeli Gears came out and I heard Baker using tympani, orchestra bells, gongs, and all it was a definite epiphany for me. Then Carl Palmer and his rig. Then Billy Cobhams profound impact and all his changing setups. Then a revisitation to Tony Williams and Max Roach at 38 years old. Along with Buddy Rich those have been main influences. The art of soloing has always been something I have been into. In my days with Legend I was doing the long 15-20 minute solo. Not sure if that's when the girlfriends got up to get drinks ;D. Even in disco/top 40 bands I was given a spot to do my thing. But, as every drummer knows, you get your little piece of the pie but most of the night anchor down the band and do your fills, etc. Like I heard Chester Thompson say, You can play a two and a half hour concert and never get a drum solo.
I don't generally play beats in a solo, simply because I have seen so many others do it, and it seems like they are killing time until the next flurry idea comes into their mind. None of my influences played that type of solo so I guess it wasn't something burned into me early on. If I play a time-type solo it revolves around little melodic passages, as you can see in the vids.
I assumed the Contest would render alot of the omb concepts, so I decided to just show off the TK as a real soloists drum set, with the percussion stuff, and a little melodic piece thrown in for expansion possibilities. Just tried to do an overall kind of thing, I guess. Most of the time I do set up with 8 toms. Rim pads are cymbals. My acoustic set up is 20 drums, around 50 cymbals and accent cymbals, gong, 70s type thing. I used to have a log drum, timp, pan drum, 12 gongs, temple blocks, cymbal tree and other stuff back in the 70s. I onlt have the one gong now, and use the Boss 330 to trigger the orchestral percussion. But, my days of using the big acoustic set, tear down and set up and tear down again, and concerts and clinics are over, so it is back to the TrapKAT. And I want the extra pads for cymbal bells, bow tings, gongs, effects, etc. If stacking becomes a playable option for me, than that's good too.
That DOES mean at some point I will, of necessity for staying interested and motivated, get further into the omb stuff. It seems a waste of money to have these things and NOT employ some of that. It will just have to fit into what my wife and I will be doing musically.
I'll definitely pick your brain on the Procussion. I just do not understand the way they set their modules up. They are unlike any other I have used. Not very user friendly or intuitive like others I have, which can all be figured out with some usage, by and large. I can try to use the Procussion forever and never figure out how they work and how to access sounds for set ups. Their "zones" are really odd to me for some reason.
I do like AMs manuals. Their approach to teaching and use is a good one. I just haven't dug into them yet. That is half the battle right there.
As far as guitar charts, I am definitely a visual-type learner, so the DVDs will be the best bet for me. I've had friends send me to various web sites for tabs and other things, and basically it just glazes over my eyes. I need to watch someone doing it, and have them tell me WHY they are doing it. But playing guitar and other things on the TK, with the possibility of two full octaves is a nice thing and I'll get into that, as well.
Kent Arnsbarger's finger reminded me of shooting myself with a pneumatic nailing gun in my index finger. I drop sticks all the time because of it. It isn't as bad as it once was. Was 20+ years ago. Never healed right, but it's obviously usable. You just have to keep plugging away. I saw Rick Allen on a Sean Hannity program last week, I think. I have rarely seen Hannity's program, but was surfing and thought I recognized Rick. Very inspirational story.
When you posted this thread I told my wife you would probably win the Contest. Jut a feeling I had. Imagine the time they would have had if they had a hundred entries. I have begun to wonder how many KAT users there are in the North Texas, DFW area. I'd love to hook up with some for some KAT jams.
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REF--are you my newest 'BEST FRIEND' now ? Ditto on all you mentioned in that last post. Not going to try to address each 1 individually right now.It's more productive to move forward with advice @ ideas.Your talk,earlier ,of human need to socialize,sounded 100% correct,when I read that .Having said that........
Let me address your situation. DK's are a lot more user friendly than they appear @ first.I know Poteus inside out .Less about Procussion,but would suspect it to be highly similar.Let's see if this helps people. I was under the impression that this info is DK 101 beginner stuff,but that my be incorrect.If you already know what I going to tell you here,feel free to say "DUH,ORB,-----WE ALL KNEW THAT !!!!! " I wouldn't be offended in the least. Just tell me what other hold ups you have,& I if can help, I will,& we can continue to move forward.So......try this approach.
It is absolutely necessary to have a keyboard controller hooked up to speed up programming methods.In your case the mallet kat should serve the function.For others,who don' have a key cont. you may consider picking up someones 'obsolete gear' . A while back a drive went out on my Mirage rack sampler.Having to face the prospect of losing those sounds & my songs involved ,I looked for a drive . Ended up buying a perfectly working Mirage keyboard/sampler from Sweetwater for $100 .Worked perfectly.Able to put drive in. & @ the same time ,had the key option to use keyboard ,by swapping the drive back & forth so it was win win for me!!! So here is what I think you should try.....
Hook up your mallet K into the DK (I guess trap,too but am not familiar with it .) Your DK can merge the data from that into your Proteus or Procussion , (I;m assuming it works like the proteus.Set up you MK where it can be reached conveniently from your seated position @ your DK. You are not going get up & move back & forth--too slow.Proceed as follows:
With this arrangement you can access every sound on your module. 1) set MK ch. to the ch. on { P } -- (proteus or any module) 2)get a 'drum sound patch' on that ch. in P. 3) you now have access to every individual sound/key into P. [including 'hidden' notes beyond the range of the high & low range from the MK ] these can be accessed by transposing up or down from MK ..remember--midi has a range of 0 {C- neg 2} to 128 {C8}. No 128 note controllers I know of--might be wrong.
Proceed as follows:
A) step on edit switch of DK & hit the trig who's note you want to program B) advance cursor & get note flashing C) search for individual note/sound you want to be on that pad by playing any note on MK. D) when you hit any key,you will hear the sound you want ,it will be appearing in the DK screen as the flashing NEW note You have now 'auto-loaded' the note onto that pad.Very easy.. E) repeat on all pads till your new set up is how you want it. This is how I edit. You can access any sound without hassles this way-all on board to pick from on MK.
Remember to save-you can further modify @ will. The main thing about 'auto load' ----,the NOTE must be flashing on DK screen.that is how you' load it'.
Your programming frustrations will likely lesson.DO NOT do all you editing with endless cursor/advance funtions on DK alone .. It is too slow & time consuming to do that way .Leads to slowness & frustration.
If this does not help,send me more ?'s. I'll try to help,
anywhere I can.
As far as that amazing complement regarding contest winner--when I posted on May 2 the "Vid perf on YT post " I did it in a mistaken belief that I wasn't properly entered.After the newsletter & I did not see my vids on site, I did not think I was even IN THE CONTEST !!! I did not realize uploads were not completed . Sure glad that was wrong!!! My goal was to network & try to 'ride the coat tale's of the contest atmosphere.Not necessarily be the winner---that would have just been a HUGE side benefit. Whoever wins will be deserving,in my opinion.Just glad to be entered & have a chance --like everybody else who entered !!! Gets back to your "human nature /socializing thoughts". Sounded right to me..
This contest is incredible to me.If Mario did not do it ----this & all my posts would not exist.Nor my YT site. & I had not turned on rig for 3 years --sound familiar to anybody else ? I would not ,in a short 2 months,have been viewed worldwide--Europe Asia South America US & so on. That is why I E-mailed Mario for thanking him for the motivation it provided to me & others.
This forum has over 6000 members.....sharing,learning,teaching,growing....Awesome !!! That was always my MAIN GOAL.
New best friend ? REF. ? after initial senseless petty bickering.... get it going & let me know if it helped....... orb.
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Just another thought on the solo drumming;
I never ever played solos. I won't say how many thousands (to fat to fight) of gigs without but I can remember each one, for a total of about ten. About 8 were with a little three piece backing up an old semi famous singer. One was when power went out in Key West, and I was ordered to play, and when I was leaving one band I had played with almost a year on the road, I got to play a farewell solo on the new guys kit! They were making a new video with the new guy, His kit was simmons pads plugged into an Octopad. 1986 BTW. the memories are pouring back; The rumor was I was leaving to get married....even though it was my last night, both drummers were told to be ready. That was a wild situation, that you don't get into often! Two drummers hanging out before gig (how many times does that happen in a one drummer band?) like a couple of college quarterbacks where both play....We both figured I'd get the call for the first set, and then Paull would do the rest of the night......So first set, dude gets the call, no big deal. I'm still getting paid, actually now that I think about it, he wasn't! And I was having thoughts about my own bed and wife and etc.. and of course etc. etc.. So they tell me I'm done and can change. So the whole place thinks I'm leaving to get married.....how many drinks do you think they bought me? Later in the night they tell me I've got a chance to perform on the video they were making......How to sober up in three minutes? Ain't happening! Played for 15, band comes back up on stage for big end....so that was really my first solo e-performance, unless you count the contribution of Ron Bacardi and call it a duo.
Vince
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We all have similar,yet different stories to tell like this .But I cant type fast & I hate typing.I'd rather have fun on the phone. We could probably talk for HOURS sharing these stories.You already know that.I want to start a subject in REF's new header or anyone can start it. It doesn't matter.It should be called WHERE have you/do you play your Kats. Then we can share more ideas , because it's a hard task to accomplish. I still have not entered the lighting post yet,because I keep tending to other matters......and I HATE typing.....& my back hurts lately....sound familiar ? is THIS the first time I said that in here? ...new info...clogging my brain buffers...racing around in my brain.....ninjam has to be figured out...other stuff....but I NEVER GIVE UP...& I REFUSE TO GIVE UP...
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Orb, I've been spending the entire day outside today, and not done yet. Exhausted. When I get the next chance, first I need to try Mario's suggestions to me on getting this Hart bass drum to work through the TK. Then I will turn on this Procussion and ask some ?s about that. Actually, there's a thread I started about that. I'll have to find it. I'll ask on there.
I'll have to print out your post and try that step by step on the MK to DK. I'll have to read it a few times to take it all in.
Later ....
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NO WINE-ING !! minor...went to doc...back to strict bland diet...BLAND DIET ?....don't like the sound of that....who stole my HOT SAUCE ?...orb...
Just lost a bunch of typing in other thread.....& I HATE TYPING.... "shut up Orb !! "....sorry ....redo it later or tomorrow.....orb...
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Bland diet? Interesting. My diet has changed alot recently, too . Gluten intolerance. No more wheat, etc. Bummer. Pizza. We make our own. Well, used to.
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I got real stressed out about 5 years ago trying to get this building ready in time for us to move the Creepy Crawl (ST Louis) across town. { Last time I checked their web site was up -no link -google it-it has some pics on there of both buildings} [ It had MY PA in there & I was FOH engineer there for 6 years-{look @ 39 most annoying things bands say} & you'll get an idea of 1 place I could play. ] It was small ,but we could jam 350 people in there.A lot of interesting shows were there--punk ska,metal,alt,hard core,straight edge,experimental,etc & just about any band who could rattle drinks off the bar.White Stripes played there once--Fallout Boy,Bad Brains, & we had bands from everywhere in that grimy place--US ,Canada,Europe,Russia,Japan,etc. I lost a lot of weight trying to get that building ready on time,that didn't happen ,though. Too many hours .
Now , I got this acid reflux & I lost weight again.I usually weigh 175, stepped on scale today---155.... CC ran 6 nights a week/ 5-7 per night--with 15min.change over-& we always ran on time. If the bands set up too slow --tough--your set ended @ set time.
The doc said I'm @ my ideal weight right now.My 36" pants are falling off- I wore 34'" @ time of contest vid. I think I'll get my 32" out of storage.
Gluten su......! --a relative of mine has that--I think your food choices might be more limited than mine. That su.....! It's almost 12:30 --time for bed.
Orb needs to dock in bed chamber bay.
Just downloaded a duo concert from 1990.My genius friend Chris wrote this incredible symphonic piece we did.Oh yeah --it starts with him solo on his MIDI DATA GLOVE he made.He works @ Pixar now (too bad for me,good for him). & I think a video is on the way too---file too big to download--30 min. show.I forgot just how good that show was,until I just heard it. I'll share as soon as possible. If you heard the audio- & I told you it was a live duo-you'd call me a liar,so I hope I can get the video.The sound is off the camera mic @ back of small theater--but it sounds way better than I thought it would. When Vince & I are done with you --maybe you and your wife will be able to do a show like that. Get on that programming advice I gave you or you'll never be able to pull it off.
orb.
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Ugh. Right now stuff is all over the house because I'm painting in the music room. Then one more room after that.
Tell me this. When you decide to do a piece, what comes first? Is it simply placing /assigning bass and snare and whatever time keeping sounds you will use? Then begin adding melodic sounds on pads? Then begin stacking notes? How do you go about establishing a set up?
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Common things here.When I built my basement studio --I changed it from' hanging blanket walls & concrete floors' to drywall & carpet, so I know about that !
How do I program ? OK. But let me tell YOU how to work.
You asked about key playing & I advised.YOU asked about guitar playing & I advised. You will need some of those skills to do this.
Having said that:
Once you make the smallest amount of progress ,your on your way. Why ? Guess what ? Drums are still your main inst.--you know that....but...
But if you can play a couple of chords on guitar,you can ALSO PLAY THEM ON YOUR KATS !!!! & your a drummer & this will be simple..&...Guess what else ?
You will be able to play complicated chords easier on Kats--since it's your instrument !!
Now...remember your ideas about human nature & man's desire to socialize ? Great point.
Elton is an excellent composer ,but....Bernie writes all the lyrics ! It just works better that way for him--everybody is DIFFERENT !
A omb can never have some of the interaction you described somewhere earlier --you can get help--but ultimately your BY YOURSELF.
Other examples: Do you know who Danny Elfmann is ? He had Oingo Boingo in 80's--no more.He started other pursuits --Pee Wee Herman movie sound tracks & then work with Tim Burton---Dark Man,Bat Man & on & on & on .Did you know he wrote that Simpsons theme song ? He is one of my biggest heroes !!! I STILL LOVE Oingo Boingo to this day !!! I'll bet he doesn't work alone.....but .....he isn't in a BAND anymore !!!
Onto how I work. It can start anywhere. A beat,a sound on keys,a pattern on any sound---tuned sounds,percussion sounds etc .Like your video entry-anything is a starting point.Once you 'fool around' on other inst. & sounds YOUR starting point will occur out of nowhere--any idea !!
So it could be a simple bass line,drum patterns,chord progressions,etc.That isn't consistent--& does not matter.It is hard to put all together,but you'll figure that out ,too.Check my post that talks of "stacked vertical columns of notes" in an earlier post.That's how I WORK. Try viewing it from a conductor's score point of view, if you can picture that. Once you grasp that concept it will become clearer.
Why don't I E you a 'jungle beat' song I did as a live DUO.If you want to ,maybe ,work with your wife,you can do songs like that.Or you can do it alone.
Let me know what you think,& we will proceed. orb....
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Orb is right! tunes can start anywhere, and many times they start with a sound or a beat....but how about today? If this was a lesson towards getting you to play more with your KAT I would suggest:
Get that chord chart, if you don't have it, then for today:
Pick three pads on the Trap on a kit you already have drums set up on, pick a sound (give up three toms for now)....in mult mode, put a C on one an F on the next, and G on the next. Experiment and set the gate time to almost a bars worth of time. If you find a sound that morphs over the four counts, that makes it that much cooler.
Now play a drumset part, and attempt to play C for 4 then F for 4 then G for 4 and then back to C for 4 while you continue the drums. So you'll have to leave your ride or hat for that note, (if you are using your right and playing 8ths) so you can link it to your hat. If trap doesn't link then you'll have to actually add a hat or ride note to the melodic multis we set up. Later you can add more notes to the melodic pads to make a chord.
Thats the whole lesson, and I think one of the simplest starts to melodic addition to drumset.
Vince
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Vince has unlocked the SECRET OF ROCK & ROLL TO ALL !!! He 'SIMPLIFIED' it for you.
The" THREE CHORD SONG" !!! amazing isn't it ?
Remember how I told you on 2 different posts to learn "Free Fallin" by Tom Petty (3 times now) !! & then I sent you to lesson #2 with EL&P's "Lucky Man"----advancing you to a 4 CHORD SONG !!!! I new you liked EL&P ,that's why I chose it & told you "Don't try to pick it like Greg ? "Just strum along (on guitar ) & have fun !
Now , with my latest post I said "It will be easier to play on YOUR INSTRUMENT !! "--- & it doesn't have to be a guitar sample your triggering.Any "TUNED SAMPLE SOUND " will work. & if you want lesson #3-----instead of gate , use a sustain pedal under left foot to control different duration times for the different chords. Vince & I also mentioned that earlier in thread. Vince & I can't live/work without a sus. ped. Hey Vince ,I never gave lessons ,but you did &....Maybe we should start an E-Drummer School !!!!!! Hey Vince----- Why don't you call me today--I don't have your #.
I think I'll fire up" FAB FOUR " software now,& "strum along on my keyboard with my 1966 Martin D-28 acoustic guitar (sample) " .
In "Lucky Man" the D chord plays around with a 4th & the G chord plays around with a 9th (if I had $1 for every D4 in rock songs---I wouldn't be a millionaire--but I'd have a big pile of cash).----,but you are not ready for lesson 4 ,YET. You have to complete 1,2,& 3 before advancing.
orb.
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Hmm. So, what I think I will do is use some rim pads for melody lines. I'll find that easier to get along with.
I am confused about one thing. Chords. A C is a single note, etc. Not sure what kind of chordal structures my TDW20 offers. It doesn't have much by way of melodic instruments. Although, I have not really checked that out in detail. I'll have to figure that out with some time in the manual. But if I want to play chords do I assume correctly I have to stack notes?
I think I will also spend some more time watching the contest vids and see what kind of structures are being employed. But for me, I lean towards fusion musically. I think if I can figure out the TDW20 I can put something together. When I do I'll send you a DVD to critique. Tell me what you think.
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REF does the TK have the alts like the DK ? I don't have a manual-but you do. Try to see what is missing -if anything from Trap K -Drum K. Does Trap K have the 4 note 'stacks' or whatever it's called ? If so,use those to build you chords.You are not a synth tweaker,so I would stay away from transposing of the modules sounds-besides transpose is a chromatic function ,& you'll likely get things 'mucked up' that way.Your 3 chord approach won't work very well-some intervals might work.
For melody notes,use alts,if the TK has that,because that's how I do it. .I would use alts & then have a series of notes on only ONE pad. &, since I know you want more pads, none will be wasted by putting individual notes spread around a bunch of pads.Only one series of order ,though, until it loops back. Maybe Vince does it differently.On Mission that WEEL passes & trigs a synth that I programed just for that.I had to because I didn't have enough pads to play it otherwise.And it took every pad up there to do it-no spares.I don't hit LISA, it but it is linked to an upper R pad (I think ) with other notes I need to keep rhythm pattern complete-it was almost an IMPOSSIBLE MISSION. Didn't see that before the fact,like my silly metaphors I always use to punish you guys !
So on WEEL-melody,& through out the song, DK is an alt 8 (individual notes) that plays 3 notes synth notes I had to specially program.So technically,8 (alt) notes X 3 synth notes plays 24 notes on one pad. (I can barely follow that).Last of 8 is a 2 note deal,so it comes up as 23,actually.Holt Sh....That does sound almost IMPOSSIBLE. Don't try this @ home ,kids.Is your brain mush yet ? How about you,REF ?
If TDW20 isn't like Proteus ,use that or Procussion for chords. We're getting advanced here--so don't pass go -or you might have to go directly to jail & be fined !!!
Get lesson 1,2,&3 ready before this. If I ever get back to lighting thread, I'll break it into ind. chapters--might look never ending otherwise.
I would assume you to use stacked notes for your chords REF. I don't use all the DK functions --so there is likely more than on path to top of mountain !! orb.
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Yes, the TK pads do layering - on the 3.1, 1-4 notes per pad (1-3 on a hi-hat pad x 2 for open/closed).
You could just use the one pad if your module does do chords - Alt 4 set to C-E-G-C.
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Thanks,......Did you hear that REF ?. I just have DK's ,but thanks for telling us.I don't have a unit or manual for TK. Just trying to be helpful-like you--pljones.
orb.
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I might be mistaken, but I thought the new TK 4.0 can stack 6 or 16 notes per pad. I forget.
Ultimately I am thinking I want to have the Yamaha module, which can do ... 16 I think, plus the opinions of those who just think the drums sound better. I am giving up on separate pads, too. I want another midi device. TrapKat, whatever. The extra wires drive me crazy. Crosstalk and false triggering issues. Sensitivity or lack thereof. More hardware to hook them all up. Not the road I want to travel on. May as well stay with my acoustic set up for all the stuff I am ending up with.
So, time to sell all my cymbals. A decision I have been dreading. But, they are sitting in cases now and aren't going to get set up again, more than likely. Time to just go electronic and get over it. Smaller footprint. More control. More options.
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Ah,the common situations of us human creatures ,that you & I have spoke of in these threads.
I am ACTUALLY NOT AN EXPERT on many points coming up.Since I've had a Mapper since 1987 (please don't ask to explain this,unless your interested in things such as midi codes & learning hex codes & other factors & I will be unable & unwilling to discuss ) .I don't use ALL THE FUNCTIONS on DK because of this.
And I couldn't deal with that ,immediately either.Only when I left CO. back to MO. in1989 ,was I forced to figure it out,not having access to my crutches (people) who helped me up there.
Many paths lead to the top of the mountain.Plus,we are not all climbing the same mountain- we have different goals.
Re: ditching cymbals. I considered ditching my 4 piece 1965 Slingerland drums .They don't sound like a modern kit,so they are good for my oldies exp. , but not the sound I need.My advice to you:Try not to ever ditch 'obsolete gear'. you may regret it later.Don't close that door."One man's ceiling is another man's floor" was that the DEAD. I can't remember & something about trash (I think was in there). Found objects ?
I addressed wire mess earlier.That's personal option ,too. PS-Slingerland was purchased for $150 in 1991.
Move forward--you may need to back up occasionally,too--nothing wrong there.
Electronics are great : headphones rehearsal etc.You might find yourself going "Back To The Future" on occasions,however.
Not familiar with your Yamaha module--what is it,again ?
Got to go now & fill the bird feeders in my backyard. The storms have messed up a couple houses I built & put out there,as well.
Should I call you Ray instead of REF now ? orb or Rob.....whatever.....
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Ray is good. Rob is good. Straightens me out on whether or not you are from the Netherlands or something. ;D
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Missouri is the show me state .That's where I live now. Will you show me your ten gallon hat ?
This was a message from Rob to Ray. Thank you, Ray . Watch your step or I'll have to call you Raymond. Does everybody love you ?
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LOL. If you only knew.
I'm actually a New Englander by birth. No ten gallon hats. Remember? I hate Texas. It's 100 degrees today. The only things that belong here are fire ants and lizards. And my wife tells me where we are is more pleasant than southern Texas - Houston, San Antonio ... They can have it. Heat is not in my nature by geographic location. In Maine, it's a heat wave if the temp is 90 degrees three days in a row.
The Yamaha DTXtreme 3 is the module I would like to get. There's a discussion about mods in a few threads on here. Between the TDW20 and the Yamaha I would be able to access all the sounds I would need to recreate what I have acoustically, and obviously things I do not have.
And I have kept aside some cymbals I will not part with, mostly my UFIPs and flat chinas from Sabian. They made some cymbals for me and I must keep those.
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Fire ants and lizards, but it's more pleasant than another place.....oh boy. How did you find your way to be so displaced from Conn.? So did you see them shoveling snow (hail) in Vermont? Like a foot!
Just an off the cuff thought about modules. I have always hated the DTx's in a big way, but, from what I've heard, they really got some stuff right on this new one. The sounds are supposed to be great. The thing is, I cringe whenever I hear someone say I'm going to get a TDW or DTX module for my main module. If the kit the modules were made to service don't do a lot of basic midi things, then the modules probably don't either. And some try to do it another way. I do have to research more, but that's what I've found. For instance, I've heard people play with a TDW and it wasn't sounding as good as the same module played with v-drums. And we can get these killer sounds in a variety of other modules. Modules that support the midi spec to some degree. Then your KATs are much more useful. I've said it time and again, these companies support keyboard players with midi implementation, but they laugh at drummers, and just give them the potential to trigger drums. Oh boy!
Vince
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Well, I have a DMpro. It is not a good, overall, as the TDW20, to my ears. But the TDW20, if more proprietary for its own V-drums, does not have overall sound quality I would like to hear, then that leaves the Yamaha. I heard a Yam some years ago and thought the Roland sound much more alive and had thicker sounding cymbals and drums. I don't remember which model it was though.
People are highly expectant of the 2Box. How many choices does the edrummer have? DDrum is gone (2Box people). Alesis only has the DM5 in production. Had one of those. Nice starter/intermediate module I guess. Actually I thought it had some nicer snare sounds than the Pro. Not much polyphony, though, which caused me problems. Who else makes quality modules?
So, unless I got another TDW20 to handle my needs (NOT), I really don't have alot of choices to handle all the sounds I want to employ.
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Polyphony--is the name of the substain and how many notes per second will sound.....Why would anyone consider an inferior,less than 128 not polyphony?Because they havent heard a Yamaha Motiff--matters not wether its regular,ES,or XS--and with a plg-150dr plug in,add 32 note polyphony to the 128=more than any other sound modulle on the market,I believe(help me out soft-synth-ers)also more than software based.Please,tell me if there are other modules,or soft synth's capable of such sweet polyphony,I love to hear the crash substain roll off,if I'm in freak/prog mode doing tom fills,multiple bass drum flurrys,or just straight ahead jazzing with a sizzle ride-talk to me,worshippers of LESSER polyphony noise makers.BTW-I use a DTXpress 2 for sound effects,with the Motiff:)it only has 32 note polyphony :-\
Peace,
Listen to that sweet substain ;D
DrumMan
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One thing I will say, the new Yams are going to run Rland for the money...but, way expensive, need to pay extra to sample....less quality than the dmpro, and the same 64 polyphony.
I think you can hear from DrumMan, that you (REF) like some of the same desires for attributes in a kit! You probably get all the same sounds from the dtx that are on the companies flagship modules. (Motif)
Didn't see what just the DTX module would cost.....
I still love the DMpro, and after a little reading realize how much like my QSR it is. I already knew, but sometimes I wonder ed if the synth end is as deep. The sounds are the same or better than the dm5, you just have to get rid of some of those 'out of the box' effects. You definately have to be okay with programming to use it probably more so than the DTX. They have effects piled on some stuff that one would never use. Just take a look, and decide if you really wanted the chorus turned up to 90% on that sample.heheheha (I'm serious) I just don't see you wanting this dtx for a 'main' module...for the money or for the midi implementation. The dtx have added many natural sounding things to their hats for instance with the slight pitch bending..etc. but again that's with their piezo pads setup. With KAT midi you can pull that off in a variety of ways.
And REF, didn't you say you already have proteus and procussion and DMpro? You've got so much already! But if you just want that one great modern module there are choices!
Vince
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Well, this got addressed on a thread I started about the one module that can do it all. Jovato felt his Yamaha DTXtreme 3 was the one to check out. Others are Roland fans.
I cannot make this Procussion come to life. I've about given up. Glad I only paid a few bucks for it off ebay. I just have brain freeze with it, I guess. I have a hard time with the other EMUs I have, as well. I ended up throwing one away, also off ebay, which had a crazy data wheel. And I can see evidence of the data wheels on these other units beginning to go weak.
I can live with the TDW20 as a main module, but that leaves the DMPro for incidentals and it does not have any, really. No decent cymbal sounds. I can't tell at this point WHAT the Procussion has. I am not going to purchase another TDW20 for incidental sounds I use. That leaves buying a module with better main sounds and using the Roland for the incidentals and such, which it has plenty of. And I have tried to tweak the DMPro, and haven't been very successful. Definite knowledge needed for that.
I wish these modules came with dual midi IN. I suppose that would be electronically difficult or impossible though. But that would settle the problem quite nicely.
BTW, CT to TX. Actually by way of ME, TN, back to ME, then NC, VA, now here. Met my wife online, actually. Going on three years. Quite a blessing, she is. Back to VA soon. I miss the mountains. And the forests.
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Drum man,Vince,Ray---- Re: 128 note polyphony.......Proteus......& 'chorus' effects. This I know:
#1 My Proteus is an E-MU XL-1 Turbo 128 note synthesizer (I call it a Proteus --all the sound chips are compatible in same era models-older ones are different.& some are only 32 note polyphony ) When you trigger sustaining sounds,& they 'linger' eventually it's note is "stolen" ,because if too many are sustaining you can "run out of notes". When your module cuts off sustain of say ,a long cymbal decay--what happens is too many other sustaining notes then "STEAL" a note & decay gets cut off.
First on --First off. Last on is last off--- (sustain) is cut off. That's why 32 or 64 are inferior to 128 .
If you use too many tracks (notes) on a sequencer-notes start dropping out.Unless it does not exceed the capacity of 128 (or 32, or 64 what ever the models spec. So:
Ray---look in manual to determine (32,64,128,) of THAT model.The lower amount--the more likely hood of notes dropping out.It is NOT sounds per second (DM) --it is first in--first out ... . & last in --last out .
Remember "machine gun roll" sound (monophonic sample) ? It won't allow for a Crush roll because each consecutive hit re-triggers the same (MONO) sample & cuts off decay of prior note.
Roland R-8 sounded so great & it didn't do that. Vince -- Can you play a believable crush roll on yours? Most current models are OK (not a monophonic sample).
#2 chorusing a sound. A chorus is actually a very short "delay effect". It "doubles the 1 note & thus adds one ( 'also phasing' ) for 2 notes & cuts 128 P to 64 P. That's why a chorus 'thickens the sound"---just ask a guitar player why he always uses a chorus effect. IT'S FAT, BABY !!! A CHORUS ALWAYS HALVES THE polyphonic capabilities !!! (for a us --not a guitar ,DUH, ORB we new that ! ).
My FIRST (& only ) E-bay purchase of a Proteus 2000 had a flaw. For $360 the guy told me it was "PERFECT". It was not.When I contacted seller for a return --he started a dispute !!! I don't know the policy of resolution--so I disputed it with MY VISA -- NOT E-bay..He lost-I won . He had no way to "PROVE IT WAS WORKING AS ADVERTISED". I offered to return it--he never contacted me--so I assumed he tried to sell me a "BOX OF ROCKS". If you sold it ,wouldn't you want unit sent back ? If it was perfect ?. He didn't. That is why I suspected he knew it was flawed. (maybe wrong ,never found out--but not wanting it returned was highly suspicious !!! Be careful ! Then @ GC I found one for $150 -- & it WAS PERFECT. Plus with GC I had 90 days to find out !!! Be careful !!!
I paid, I think $1200 for XL . Then loaded 3 more sound chips into it (another $1000 ,pricey , but powerful !! ) So if it tanks--I transfer sound chips into GC $150 model------my "back up " . But Proteus front panel knobs get "WIGGY" after a while -- and can become unusable. My XL has a tiny flaw--but it doesn't affect performance--but one day probably will--like the E-bay one !! The seller may have not used it for a while & ACTUALLY didn't know.
What is the polyphony of your Procussion,Ray ?
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Just want to repeat, looking at these drum modules....you can do better by getting a better key module. For instance, you aren't going to get better drum sounds on a DTX than the Motif. (anyone, correct me if I'm wrong) Music production people don't buy the DTX, they buy the Motif which is giant and expandable.
What, has the procussion never made any sound? Emu and KAT are close cousins in DrumKAT land....for a short while, emu was the mom! (and distributer)
Old machines with their data wheels are certainly a weakness in these modules.....the wheel is always the first to go.
And Orb, I wasn't even thinking about chorus stealing polyphony, I was thinking how chorus doesn't help drum sounds and the QSR, and Dmpro have these effects slathered on when you get the box, Chorus will thicken guitar and bass, but doesn't really do the same for drums. Polyphony certainly another concern. I was just saying why people like the dm5 and think they hate the dmpro....same sounds, different effects!
And buzz rolls were a lot better with the R-8....while certain newer modules might only have 64 or 128 places for a 16th note to be, the R-8 had like 2000 (throwing numbers around here indiscriminately....I forget what the exact numbers are) is that overkil? yes it is! but it allows you to do things like the roll button on the front of the module, where you can press the sound and the roll button, and not only get a dynamic buzz, but you could actually hear the 'digging in' type of technique demonstrated.
ReF, that's a lot of states....glad to see Virginia back in the mix, less fire ants.....
...maybe someday there will be a book: Ray Frigon; Mover/ Shaker/ Drummer/ Legend HeHeHa get it?
Vince
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Vince --No R-8 any more ? Mine is sitting on a shelf in perfect working order (I think, not fired up lately.)
It broke my heart to pull it out of live rack,but I needed channels to be Orbital Synthanhauser von Moogenstien !!
It took up half my (16) channels-didn't work for me as Orb.
If I was just 'drumming' in a band it would be my whole rig !! side project anyone ?
Did you guys grasp the : first on -- first off .... last on-- last off Polyphony concept If not, better.( Pronounced : pol--if -fo-nee) Accent on "if"
Did I see some wuss talking fire ants & lizards ? Bug guy just found brown recluse spiders in condos 4-Plex -- like one big house to them. Community effort to rid them & keep out .
Most DEADLY spider in US--scary--don't believe me ? Go to:
http://www,brown-recluse.com/ Don't let your children watch this __ unless you want them sleeping in your bed for a while !!!! woof, er ,I mean-- reeeeeeaaaaaaar
orb.
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The R-8 was my only module for years...I think I started with a U-110, and a RX soimething machine and then traded those for the R-8. Five midi channels..definable outs, was it 8 plus stereo?....so tweakable...great sounds. I know a few people that just drum e-wise, and that's all the module they need! I had one card, I think it was 'latin'.
Your polyphony explanation was very good! Kind of karate kid..:.:.first on first off etc..
I knew what you were talking about when you said the name......bad spider. I only know of fire ants from a couple experiences in some part of Florida. (don't recall city) Once a smart person steps on a hill, you remember not to again! In the keys there were some little green lizard like things....don't remember what they called them, but seem a lot like the tv gecko....they would just freak you a little because they moved so fast. You'd be walking along a sidewalk, and they would cross in front of you....just a zip and a blur. Nothing to hurt you, but Florida made up for that with the scorpians. Step on one, and even while they take their last breath they make you pay!
Vince
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Polyphony was only a problem on the Alesis DM5. Only 32 and fast playing had drop outs. The Proteus Procussion, I believe has 32 from what I have read about it, but that doesn't matter. I only wanted to use it for incidental sounds, not main playing. I just cannot figure out how to access the individual sounds to create my own setups.
If I am not mistaken the DTX 3 IS the drum sounds off the Motiff and more. Is that not correct? But the Motiff, how many actual drum and cymbal sounds does it have? Can't be that many if it's designed for keyboardist's basic drumming they do for production. I'll have to look that up. I might be surprised. Of course, I don't need a keyboard module. I have those.
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Ray -that post you said you would print out & look @ --I told how you to access individual sounds with your MK or a keyboard.Print it ,bud-- just do it & problem solved .
Polyphony is ALWAYS a problem--for any module once you use too many notes--Usually only when a sequencer program uses too many TRACKS (total notes at once ).
Give me a link to a manual, (web ? E-MU archive ? ). OK ,so I can read it--I won't need to print it (maybe a couple pages).
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Vince, thirty years this year since the Legend album came out. I still have young kids emailing me about it now and then. More often when I had a myspace page.
Rob, I will definitely check out that procedure and see what happens.
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When discussing polyphony, remember the DrumMan thing, it's all about the sustain of the cymbals, and once you really get in you will find limitations. For example: play a gong, or better mabe you like a couple different gongs and like to hit them in the same bar whilst still playing da drums. And using that tremendous ride cymbal you created from three samples. You will find the edge soon enough. It's not unusual for me to have two different samples in a snare and two in the rimpad for shots. They add up, but the gongs will be the first to go followed quickly by the ride. How long does/should a good ride sustain? How long do/should really low toms sustain? The contribution to polyphony doesn't end with the attack ':::.......first on first off! It ends with the release, and in some cases the release of the effect!
I too need to look this up before shooting my mouth off, but the motif is big and I'm pretty sure can give more drum sounds than the DTX at the same quality. These things are expandable in many ways, and can be dedicated samplers (while the DTX sort of follows DMpro's lead with sample cards if I understand) and workstations, many musical useful things, like arpeggios......I'm only thinking this because of studio buddies I know. They would never buy a module like DTX or Vdrms modules unless they were getting the drums too, they buy keyboard modules but they sound like drummers when they're done! All I use is a QSR. But I'll look into it more. I think these have been around for a few years and there are a few different models.
As for your work; It's held it's own over time. I'm embarassed to say, I listened to it in my youth at least a couple dozen times....no that's not the bad part....it was on cassette, so from what I know of history, you didn't print. I mean how many times and different ways was it bootlegged through all these years?...This one belonged to a friend, and was bought at a national record chain and looked real enough.......ya know back in those days, (I would swear it was 79, but might have been 80 if that's even possible) I wouldn't even begin to fathom that rips were being done and sold....how much fame from such a limited run. Must have set some kind of record! And the drumming and words weren't so bad either ;) A little funny, my second CD is Wizard Obligation......or maybe it's not.
Vince
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Polyphony-- (I think there is some way of making (name of function ?) notes into some kind of GROUPS or BUNDLES or some term (got to review the Proteus manual) where you can "isolate notes so they won't "STEAL" notes . If I remember (never programmed this) then no matter how many fast rolls or sustaining or releases are adding up --groups can only steal inside the group (COOL ). That is used so long sustains/ releases of a cymbal will hang on until the sample end.Only if within that particular group, too many add up you will get cut off. So you could have a group with ONE cymbal by itself & it can never be stolen (cut off),because it's 'alone'. .I'll look it up & tell you tomorrow. I use gongs & cymbal stacks all the time --it sounds great. Just 2 notes gong/cymbal---the gongs might sustain a little longer & the sound is 'denser'.The cymbal handles the initial attack/transient & then the gong sustains longer.& I use another trick ,but you'll never guess--so why tell anybody? haha.Try & guess.How long do John Bonham's cymbals sustain? seems like forever.Quality !!!!
Good luck . orbie wan conorbie .
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REF--the motif is actually a premium keyboard module-that has 55-65 drum kits on board.Here's the deal-buy the drums plug in card($100.-250.00 depending on where you get it,it adds 80+ kits,and adds 32 notes of polyphony to the existing 128--the sound of a snare,cymbals,even a resonant bass drum,is unbelievable how good it sounds)the DTX3,is 64 note polyphony.Strange,if you think about Vinces comments regarding they only give us what they want,it's on the money,that the best sounding hardware module,is'nt even dedicated for drummers.IT IS cool,though,you can play the keybaords,guitars,with the most lightest touch-from the Trapkat 3.1,with your fingers!Used modules ebay for $300.-$450.00,quite a deal,the only difference between the regular motif,the ES,and the newer XS motif--is the amount of drumkits,they all have the same 128 note polyphony,have 2 card plug in ports.Go on the motifator.com site-no one,who has played with one-wants anything else.I personally feel that soft/synth's are the next step in evolution-right now,too pricey,and not too many people feel comfortable taking a laptop,or PC out on a gig.Yes,the Muse receptor seems awesome,I think they are in windows 95 evolution stage.And it is not cheap,it is awesome after watching Mario load it up,looks easy,sounds great.Drum Software today,in 2009-is just not $$ competitive with the hardware modules.Some say you get what you pay for-my freinds,they are right-and the motif-has not dissapointed. ;D
Peace to all-
Frank Johnson,--aka--DrumMan
suffering in hot as H--Florida
soon to be cooler in Asheville NC
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A little hard searching these, I guess they/ve been around for a lot longer than I thought......spent much time looking at motif rack xs, and can't believe how far things have come. (since I last looked) Listened to some demos that were just unbelievable.....had to remind myself a couple times it was all electric, and had me wondering often: how did they pull that off? (like when we watch 'M' play vibes on MKat) Heard a couple of the best snare and bass drums I ever heard. I've been places and used these sounds, and yet I didn't know. (maybe keyplayers don't know how to pick a snare?) I'll be spending more time checking these out.
The real time arpegiators are like: no, you didn't make it do that! You could have a whole solo act without leaving this section of the instrument.(I haven't read the directions yet, but, I'll bet you could even tie a hand or foot behind your back)....and blow up some acoustic geetar players....didn't get to the electric guitars yet, but I know they will kill!
Let me get ahold of one of these for a few months, and we'll be ready to reopen that discussion about drum soloists being able to hang with guitar and key soloists, and and to take/play bar jobs.
I feel like a caveman. Hey isn't that like one up from being a dinosaur? :D
Vince
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Are you kidding me? Now wait, when you say 50-80 drum sets clear this up for me. On a keyboard, a drum set is basically certain notes being used for snare, toms, ride, crash, etc. Some modules I have have pretty good sounding drums, crashes and rides, not happening. But, my question is, is the motiff set up to do sound modification? Or is the player limited by what the motiff has, period? Can I at least have 8 toms by pitch changing? What about cymbals? Do they actually offer different cymbals to choose from, or is everything limited to four sounds? Hi hats?
I'm confused here. On a keyboard, you choose a sound and the 88 keys are that sound, whether alone or stacked with other sounds, like the four zones on a Kurzweil or something. When you choose drum sets and/or percussion you get the typical assignment of notes and sounds, right? If that is used with a drum controller, not a keyboard, and you can place midi notes wherever, you are also given options of lots of drum, cymbal, and percussion lists of sounds to choose from?
I need to get a manual. What is the price difference between the DTX and the Motiff? Guess I can look that up myself. And sure, having the option to be able to have 2 octaves of chromatic melody would be a great thing, as well. I have never considered this, because I thought drum modules and keyboard modules were completely different animals.
Asheville! Nice. Mountains. A little crowded for me, but a great area.
Vince, funny thing. Grady, our old roady, found a Legend bootleg CD on ebay and sent it to me. I guess they show up from time to time. Fred had been searching for an album for his second daughter for years and finally found an original. He has two. I lost mine in a move down south. My oldest daughter came upon one through a boyfriend. His father passed away and he was looking through his dad's album collection and my daughter said, Hey, that's my dad's album. He gave it to her. I told her, if she needs some cash and thinks of selling it, send it to me first so I can sign it, and she'll probably get more. Crazy in the extreme this whole thing is. Whodathunk? Not us back then.
I have never had a problem with 64 note poly, regardless of what I am playing. Though I never have done much stacking, though. But the idea of 128 notes is certainly nice. I have to check this out.
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Ray ,if any of your ?'s are for ME,I can tell you many more answers "in general". I can't address specific ?'s about modules & manuals I don't have.I think you can get happening beyond what you have going now.As for the "DIFFERENCES" between a "KEYBOARD MODULE" or a "DRUM MODULE",it doesn't matter (to a point).When Roland or E-MU or any others, makes a product ,it is usually "geared " for a specific user --drummer VS keyboard player.But all are inter-changeable.
Most manuals have those assignment (ind. drum notes on keys are stuck there-your DK programming gets them where you want them ,per kit. The Roland R-8 was different.It allowed to place ind. sounds re-arranged -- "IN THE MODULE" .Ask Vince, he must know.It also had an "auto-load" function ,too (like I told you to use to program your DK ).
Ray--SET IT UP LIKE I TOLD YOU EARLIER.It will solve many problems for you.
You have to know how to edit your module to get tom extra toms (want a kit with 88 tom tunings ? I'll tell you how).& on whatever module -- ANY !!!! & YES pitch edits & several MIDI ch. will be used. Only restriction--- IT MUST BE A MULTI-TIMBRAL MODULE (all 16 midi ch.)
$ per module. MONEY !! MORE SAMPLE LENGTH = MORE MONEY..... TOTAL MEMORY OF ALL SAMPLES ADDED UP IS WHAT SEPARATES BAD MODULES FROM GOOD MODULES----- bad cymbals (length & looping of decay) has always been a problem.
Ray ---take an ( acoustic cymbal & crash it,not module cymbal) ,now how long does it last? VERY LONG (John Bohnam ?) In a recording studio ,decay falls below the "noise floor".
Put your ear up close---those vibrations linger on forever. Take a stopwatch & time it---& don't expect a module to do that!!!! Roland ,or whoever has to use looping (of sustain decay) in the cym. sample ---Not enough MEMORY (or $ ) to have decay last like the acoustic cym. Remember--don't sell your cymbals !!!!!!!!!!
Here is how I do a lot of studio recording. Drums,etc are module sounds & hat & crashes are acoustic. Digital Performer has a multi-rec function. Even without external audio hardware !!! note- All Macs have built in (2) audio tracks for record & playback--right out of the box !!!! &....Allows for unlimited 'playback' of MORE THAN 2 TRACKS--up to the capabilities of your computer---depending on processor speed & comp. memory issues. Talking studio here,not live.
I still can edit (volume,timing,etc.issues of module sounds) but the audio tracks are locked in---If you crashed @ wrong time --start over,but if it is close, don't erase it,just consider it a scratch track ,until you perform a better take !!!! Also, you can record (audio) a couple different (acoustic) cymbal samples & use those as "SOUND BITES". Now YOU are making your own samples & saving a ton of comp. memory!!! Just record those BITES & then put those (in time ) in place of a module crash.You'll need DP or comparable sequencer program to do this.(talking studio here,not live!!) . For live, if volume is an issue ---use smaller cymbals and use pads for all else & Make sense ?. Let me know,OK,bud ?
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A good sample library, of course, has cymbal samples that last until they hit the noise floor. Disk space is cheap, though, which is fortunate, because a set of hats sampled like that from closed through open (8 positions) and 16 or so velocity layers gets big. I have a set of samples where one hi-hat fills an entire 4Gb DVD. Sounds pretty nice. Heh. (You then make sure you're polyphony count is set so you're chopping stuff off otherwise you end up processing inaudible signals and run out of CPU and IO, which aren't so cheap...)
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Thanks pljones--I'm old school with mostly modules (Proteus 2000) .I was hoping for an expert like you to chime in & clue this old dinosaur up, to the future.I joined this forum for the TAKE, as well as the give !! I do have FAB FOUR software (more recent ), but that's my only software,right now.& like you said, big drives are cheap.If your not in an apartment ,I guess a couple of crash cymbals & a mic is cheaper ! Dino --style !!!
My video guy requires all his regular clients to leave a large drive @ the studio--to prevent him from running out of disc space on all the projects he has going on @ the same time.Only way it works for him.He has them stacked up in studio (still owned & controlled by the client,of course.He just won't work on their project,once that drive leaves.)The drives have to go back for him to work on their vids.When I need a set up like you have ,maybe you can tell me cost & specs. Thanks. orb.
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Well, Rob, the thread is morphing exponentially now.
I'm frustrated because stuff is scattered all over the house, still. I've got a ways to go, too. Will be the weekend before I can set up all my instruments again. Different room in the house, too. Move furniture. Bang up freshly painted walls. Much fun.
Right now I am on a fishing expedition on this thread, catching information on at least three different lines that have developed. Don't want anything to tangle. I'll have to go back and read this whole thing all over again to get the stuff printed out that I need. But that's okay.
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Ray,what's the cure for a morphed thread ? ...... If you want to destroy my sweater.......I told you I'd rather be a WEEZER !!! Anybody ? Has it ever happened before.
Chill, have a good fathers day !!! I'm, goona chill my bad self. Let me know whats the catch of the day, OK ? Post back on mon. or tues. Out.orb.
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Well, after 8 pages the basic catches for me are:
1. Purposefully investigating and incorporating more of the OMB concept into my own playing, at least for artistic adventure.
2. Learn more about the function of my KATs.
3. Deciding on how to best arrive at that place with controllers and sound modules I have or do not have, and would rather have.
4. Just enjoying the interaction.
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The human interaction you spoke of earlier, hey Ray.
I'm not married ,like you....but...if you leave your gig around 2 am,head to a 'club' you can continue to interact with women & poles. Only problem -- when you get home @ sunrise ,the pay from your gig has evaporated. Also, if your girlfriend is getting ready for work when you arrive,the empty wallet is the least of your new problems !!........unless she followed you home from the 'club'. These are advanced techniques--don't try this @ home............just kidding...now we're morphing again ! & stay away from those tequila shots--they almost always lead to trouble.... those shots will make a 50 watt Marshall sound like a Marshall stack ! I love rock-n-roll--so put another dime in the jukebox,baby...........
I got bored--need more questions to answer !! orb.
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Ray-You said ---Well, after 8 pages the basic catches for me are:
1. Purposefully investigating and incorporating more of the OMB concept into my own playing, at least for artistic adventure.........
I knew you were an omb guy . You build things & you are curious. What did you build ? a barn ? or was that Vince? a studio ? Did you go to a trade school? Can you do: carpentry,electrical,drywall,painting ? I'll bet you can. Plus I don't know what your day job even is. Spill those beans anywhere ?
And you wanted to improve on keys..... Then you wanted to improve on guitar. We never talked about singing,but that's OK.
These traits are vital to becoming an omb type. Lots of musicians can play several instruments. Even if it is just a little bit, It adds up quick. Once you grasp a little composing ,you can get far pretty quick. You don't need to MASTER other instruments - just apply it to your songs or writing.I could tell from your vids. that you understood music well beyond drumming .Patterns,phrasing,melody - some of the building blocks of composing.Like when drummers sense the chord changes when jamming .I think Paul McCartney played every inst. on Ram.Or maybe Todd Rundgren.Many more like these.They didn't have to play it all at once--just play it all period.Those guys could make albums alone ,but they also knew that they could make better albums with "a little help from my friends".(Human interaction ?) Have you got set up like I suggested earlier?? If not -back up & do it.
It gets back to the not enough time issue--but that won't stop you. Once a little progress is made ,it will become addictive-you will be motivated once you get started.I will coach you, if you would like that. Would you?? With me, Vince & others ganging up on you -you can't lose. We will not allow our student to fail. Ok, just a NOVEL idea-but it might just work.Go for it. orb.
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I renovate houses. Yeah, I know how to do alot of the various trade stuff. Knew carpentry, and learned other things during my time as a maintenance super of an apartment complex. I lack AC knowledge, though. But I can basically build my own house, bottom up. I built my house back in Maine. But mostly I add on or renovate.
I used to sing alot more than I do now. My voice is weak just from lack of use.
Well, the rooms are done and I can set back up. So .... we'll what comes next.
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just so at least you know that the trapKat is getting some good use...LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6PMfTlUAL4
this was edited, cuz Mr. Buster would only give the papporazzi (mom & dad) like 10-20 seconds at a whack. I think his influences are Keith Moon or Animal
;D
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Ray, I had a suspicion we were a lot alike ! I am not just a painter,also any handyman work. More of a' rouge"' worker,but the last room I built was a permitted job & I even drew up the plans & passed inspection. Other than those fire stopping issues,I passed in 2 insp. I had to use licensed electricians & an HVAC guy,& a carpet layer.I did everything else-this was for a friend in a near 1 mill. $ house . All my work is through referrals -- word of mouth. And I built a 15' X 35' room in 6 weeks--a deadline because a daughter was coming home from college.I learned everything from watching & asking . I also buy books @ Lowes----hardwood floors,tile,simple stair rails,doors ,trim,minor plumbing, etc. I'm not a REAL carpenter.I helped build a timber frame house with hammer beams ,queen beams,etc, I just watched the timber framers--they assembled & broke down & labeled all the parts in Kentucky & brought it to Mo. for assembly.I hung every door ,cased the place & painted it (several times,now.) The interior ceiling peak is 27' high. I have a lot of pictures of this house,only time I was involved in a project like this .(1995).What is this forum for ,again Talk about morphing--we are out on a limb with these posts.Sorry tech heads !
I've had house sound & lighting in too many clubs to list. Installs ,clubs,festivals,corporate,auctions,weddings,parties,balloon race,body builder events,drag shows,(what ?) etc. .The em -cee's (Frank Marino-Vegas) er,'young friend' told me his voice sounded like a man-& that I had to 'change it' !! No problem-but I needed to talk to him in the dressing room, & that was a little uncomfortable for me !!!! All these guys gearing up for the show.
Are you going to out do me .. I can clear a room if I start to sing. Think I stick to dialog,effects & vocoding-Vince I need advice on that vocalizer purchase. I'll do some research first.
....well what comes next ? Set up that deal I told you a few pages back. THAT HAS TO BE STEP ONE. You'll be a frustrated programmer if you don't start there.With out "auto load " it will be TOO SLOW. After that,Vince & I will get you going in no time,OK Vince - you on board here --teach ??
Kats of a fur ,flock togeth-thur ! Ever smashed a finger or get a really nasty cut ..splinters..knuckle busters...
We DO have 9 lives ,don't we. meow......orb.
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I believe all the smiley faces have punctuation code. So, if you hit 2 or 3 question marks - ?? you get a smiley face
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Or not.
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what
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The smileys aren't visible when in the post box. Is that right.I'm not using question marks for questions to avoid whatever the heel is going on around here.I can't remove those unless I eliminate the question marks from the original or modified posts.Anybody able to explain this #.
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Hit "Preview" before "Post" to see what you'll get :).