[REF]

Vince, thirty years this year since the Legend album came out. I still have young kids emailing me about it now and then. More often when I had a myspace page.

Rob, I will definitely check out that procedure and see what happens.

[vindrums]

   When discussing polyphony, remember the DrumMan thing, it's all about the sustain of the cymbals, and once you really get in you will find limitations. For example: play a gong, or better mabe you like a couple different gongs and like to hit them in the same bar whilst still playing da drums. And using that tremendous ride cymbal you created from three samples. You will find the edge soon enough. It's not unusual for me to have two different samples in a snare and two in the rimpad for shots. They add up, but the gongs will be the first to go followed quickly by the ride. How long does/should a good ride sustain?   How long do/should really low toms sustain? The contribution to polyphony doesn't end with the attack  ':::.......first on first off! It ends with the release, and in some cases the release of the effect!

   I too need to look this up before shooting my mouth off, but the motif is big and I'm pretty sure can give more drum sounds than the DTX at the same quality. These things are expandable in many ways, and can be dedicated samplers (while the DTX sort of follows DMpro's lead with sample cards if I understand) and workstations, many musical useful things, like arpeggios......I'm only thinking this because of studio buddies I know. They would never buy a module like DTX or Vdrms modules unless they were getting the drums too, they buy keyboard modules but they sound like drummers when they're done! All I use is a QSR. But I'll look into it more. I think these have been around for a few years and there are a few different models.

   As for your work; It's held it's own over time. I'm embarassed to say, I listened to it in my youth at least a couple dozen times....no that's not the bad part....it was on cassette, so from what I know of history, you didn't print. I mean how many times and different ways was it bootlegged through all these years?...This one belonged to a friend, and was bought at a national record chain and looked real enough.......ya know back in those days, (I would swear it was 79, but might have been 80 if that's even possible) I wouldn't even begin to fathom that rips were being done and sold....how much fame from such a limited run. Must have set some kind of record! And the drumming and words weren't so bad either  A little funny, my second CD is Wizard Obligation......or maybe it's not.
Vince

[Orb Vroomer]

Polyphony--  (I think there is some way of making  (name of function ?) notes into some kind of GROUPS or BUNDLES or some term (got to review the Proteus manual) where you can "isolate notes so they won't "STEAL" notes . If I remember (never programmed this) then no matter how many fast rolls or sustaining or releases are adding up --groups can only steal inside the group (COOL ). That is used so long sustains/ releases of a cymbal will hang on until the sample end.Only if within that particular group, too many add up you will get cut off. So you could have a group with ONE cymbal by itself & it can never be stolen (cut off),because it's 'alone'. .I'll look it up & tell you tomorrow. I use gongs & cymbal stacks all the time --it sounds great. Just 2 notes gong/cymbal---the gongs might sustain a little longer & the sound is 'denser'.The cymbal handles the initial attack/transient & then the gong sustains longer.& I use another trick ,but you'll never guess--so why tell anybody? haha.Try & guess.How long do John Bonham's cymbals sustain? seems like forever.Quality !!!!
Good luck . orbie wan conorbie .

[DrumMan]

REF--the motif is actually a premium keyboard module-that has 55-65 drum kits on board.Here's the deal-buy the drums plug in card($100.-250.00 depending on where you get it,it adds 80+ kits,and adds 32 notes of polyphony to the existing 128--the sound of a snare,cymbals,even a resonant bass drum,is unbelievable how good it sounds)the DTX3,is 64 note polyphony.Strange,if you think about Vinces comments regarding they only give us what they want,it's on the money,that the best sounding hardware module,is'nt even dedicated for drummers.IT IS cool,though,you can play the keybaords,guitars,with the most lightest touch-from the Trapkat 3.1,with your fingers!Used modules ebay for $300.-$450.00,quite a deal,the only difference between the regular motif,the ES,and the newer XS motif--is the amount of drumkits,they all have the same 128 note polyphony,have 2 card plug in ports.Go on the motifator.com site-no one,who has played with one-wants anything else.I personally feel that soft/synth's are the next step in evolution-right now,too pricey,and not too many people feel comfortable taking a laptop,or PC out on a gig.Yes,the Muse receptor seems awesome,I think they are in windows 95 evolution stage.And it is not cheap,it is awesome after watching Mario load it up,looks easy,sounds great.Drum Software today,in 2009-is just not $$ competitive with the hardware modules.Some say you get what you pay for-my freinds,they are right-and the motif-has not dissapointed.
Peace to all-
Frank Johnson,--aka--DrumMan
suffering in hot as H--Florida
soon to be cooler in Asheville NC

[vindrums]

    A little hard searching these, I guess they/ve been around for a lot longer than I thought......spent much time looking at motif rack xs, and can't believe how far things have come. (since I last looked) Listened to some demos that were just unbelievable.....had to remind myself a couple times it was all electric, and had me wondering often: how did they pull that off? (like when we watch 'M' play vibes on MKat) Heard a couple of the best snare and bass drums I ever heard. I've been places and used these sounds, and yet I didn't know. (maybe keyplayers don't know how to pick a snare?) I'll be spending more time checking these out.
    The real time arpegiators are like: no, you didn't make it do that! You could have a whole solo act without leaving this section of the instrument.(I haven't read the directions yet, but, I'll bet you could even tie a hand or foot behind your back)....and blow up some acoustic geetar players....didn't get to the electric guitars yet, but I know they will kill!
    Let me get ahold of one of these for a few months, and we'll be ready to reopen that discussion about drum soloists being able to hang with guitar and key soloists, and and to take/play bar jobs.
I feel like a caveman. Hey isn't that like one up from being a dinosaur?
Vince

[REF]

Are you kidding me? Now wait, when you say 50-80 drum sets clear this up for me. On a keyboard, a drum set is basically certain notes being used for snare, toms, ride, crash, etc. Some modules I have have pretty good sounding drums, crashes and rides, not happening. But, my question is, is the motiff set up to do sound modification? Or is the player limited by what the motiff has, period? Can I at least have 8 toms by pitch changing? What about cymbals? Do they actually offer different cymbals to choose from, or is everything limited to four sounds? Hi hats?

I'm confused here. On a keyboard, you choose a sound and the 88 keys are that sound, whether alone or stacked with other sounds, like the four zones on a Kurzweil or something. When you choose drum sets and/or percussion you get the typical assignment of notes and sounds, right? If that is used with a drum controller, not a keyboard, and you can place midi notes wherever, you are also given options of lots of drum, cymbal, and percussion lists of sounds to choose from?

I need to get a manual. What is the price difference between the DTX and the Motiff? Guess I can look that up myself. And sure, having the option to be able to have 2 octaves of chromatic melody would be a great thing, as well. I have never considered this, because I thought drum modules and keyboard modules were completely different animals.

Asheville! Nice. Mountains. A little crowded for me, but a great area.

Vince, funny thing. Grady, our old roady, found a Legend bootleg CD on ebay and sent it to me. I guess they show up from time to time. Fred had been searching for an album for his second daughter for years and finally found an original. He has two. I lost mine in a move down south. My oldest daughter came upon one through a boyfriend. His father passed away and he was looking through his dad's album collection and my daughter said, Hey, that's my dad's album. He gave it to her. I told her, if she needs some cash and thinks of selling it, send it to me first so I can sign it, and she'll probably get more. Crazy in the extreme this whole thing is. Whodathunk? Not us back then.

I have never had a problem with 64 note poly, regardless of what I am playing. Though I never have done much stacking, though. But the idea of 128 notes is certainly nice. I have to check this out.

[Orb Vroomer]

Ray ,if any of your ?'s are for ME,I can tell you many more answers "in general". I can't address specific ?'s about modules & manuals I don't have.I think you can get happening beyond what you have going now.As for the "DIFFERENCES" between a "KEYBOARD MODULE" or a "DRUM MODULE",it doesn't matter (to a point).When Roland or E-MU or any others, makes a product ,it is usually "geared " for a specific user --drummer VS keyboard player.But all are inter-changeable.

Most manuals have those assignment (ind. drum notes on keys are stuck there-your DK programming gets them where you want them ,per kit. The Roland R-8 was different.It allowed to place ind. sounds re-arranged -- "IN THE MODULE" .Ask Vince, he must know.It also had an "auto-load" function ,too (like I told you to use to program your DK ).
Ray--SET IT UP LIKE I TOLD YOU EARLIER.It will solve many problems for you.

You have to know how to edit your module to get tom extra toms (want a kit with 88 tom tunings ? I'll tell you how).& on whatever module -- ANY !!!! & YES pitch edits & several MIDI ch. will be used. Only restriction--- IT MUST BE A MULTI-TIMBRAL MODULE (all 16 midi ch.)

$ per module.  MONEY !!  MORE SAMPLE LENGTH = MORE MONEY..... TOTAL MEMORY OF ALL SAMPLES ADDED UP IS WHAT SEPARATES BAD MODULES FROM GOOD MODULES----- bad cymbals (length & looping of decay) has always been a problem.

Ray ---take an ( acoustic cymbal & crash it,not module cymbal) ,now how long does it last? VERY LONG (John Bohnam ?) In a recording studio ,decay falls below the "noise floor".
Put your ear up close---those vibrations linger on forever. Take a stopwatch & time it---& don't expect a module to do that!!!!  Roland ,or whoever has to use looping (of sustain decay) in the cym. sample ---Not enough MEMORY (or $ ) to have decay last like the acoustic cym. Remember--don't sell your cymbals !!!!!!!!!!

Here is how I do a lot of studio recording. Drums,etc are module sounds & hat & crashes are acoustic. Digital Performer has a multi-rec function. Even without external audio hardware !!! note- All Macs have built in (2) audio tracks for record & playback--right out of the box !!!!   &....Allows for unlimited 'playback' of MORE THAN 2 TRACKS--up to the capabilities of your computer---depending on processor speed & comp. memory issues. Talking studio here,not live.

I still can edit (volume,timing,etc.issues of module sounds) but the audio tracks are locked in---If you crashed @ wrong time --start over,but if it is close, don't erase it,just consider it a scratch track ,until you perform a better take !!!! Also, you can record (audio) a couple different (acoustic) cymbal samples & use those as "SOUND BITES". Now YOU are making your own samples & saving a ton of comp. memory!!! Just record those BITES & then put those (in time ) in place of a module crash.You'll need DP or comparable sequencer program to do this.(talking studio here,not live!!) . For live, if volume is an issue ---use smaller cymbals and use pads for all else & Make sense ?. Let me know,OK,bud ?
 

[pljones]

A good sample library, of course, has cymbal samples that last until they hit the noise floor.  Disk space is cheap, though, which is fortunate, because a set of hats sampled like that from closed through open (8 positions) and 16 or so velocity layers gets big.  I have a set of samples where one hi-hat fills an entire 4Gb DVD.  Sounds pretty nice.  Heh.  (You then make sure you're polyphony count is set so you're chopping stuff off otherwise you end up processing inaudible signals and run out of CPU and IO, which aren't so cheap...)

[Orb Vroomer]

Thanks pljones--I'm old school with mostly modules (Proteus 2000) .I was hoping for an expert like you to chime in & clue this old dinosaur up, to the future.I joined this forum for the TAKE, as well as the give !! I do have FAB FOUR software (more recent ), but that's my only software,right now.& like you said, big drives are cheap.If your not in an apartment ,I guess a couple of crash cymbals & a mic is cheaper ! Dino --style !!!

My video guy requires all his regular clients to leave a large drive @ the studio--to prevent him from running out of disc space on all the projects he has going on @ the same time.Only way it works for him.He has them stacked up in studio (still owned & controlled by the client,of course.He just won't work on their project,once that drive leaves.)The drives have to go back for him to work on their vids.When I need a set up like you have ,maybe you can tell me cost & specs. Thanks. orb.

[REF]

Well, Rob, the thread is morphing exponentially now.

I'm frustrated because stuff is scattered all over the house, still. I've got a ways to go, too. Will be the weekend before I can set up all my instruments again. Different room in the house, too. Move furniture. Bang up freshly painted walls. Much fun.

Right now I am on a fishing expedition on this thread, catching information on at least three different lines that have developed. Don't want anything to tangle. I'll have to go back and read this whole thing all over again to get the stuff printed out that I need. But that's okay.

[Orb Vroomer]

Ray,what's the cure for a morphed thread ? ...... If you want to destroy my sweater.......I told you I'd rather be a WEEZER !!! Anybody ? Has it ever happened before.
Chill, have a good fathers day !!!   I'm, goona chill my bad self. Let me know whats the catch of the day, OK ? Post back on mon. or tues.  Out.orb.

[REF]

Well, after 8 pages the basic catches for me are:

1. Purposefully investigating and incorporating more of the OMB concept into my own playing, at least for artistic adventure.

2. Learn more about the function of my KATs.

3. Deciding on how to best arrive at that place with controllers and sound modules I have or do not have, and would rather have.

4. Just enjoying the interaction.

[Orb Vroomer]

The human interaction you spoke of earlier, hey Ray.

I'm not married ,like you....but...if you leave your gig around 2 am,head to a 'club' you can continue to interact with women & poles. Only problem -- when you get home @ sunrise ,the pay from your gig has evaporated.  Also, if your girlfriend is getting ready for work when you arrive,the empty wallet is the least of your new problems !!........unless she followed you home from the 'club'.   These are advanced techniques--don't try this @ home............just kidding...now we're morphing again !  & stay away from those tequila shots--they almost always lead to trouble.... those shots will make a 50 watt Marshall sound like a Marshall stack ! I love rock-n-roll--so put another dime in the jukebox,baby...........

I got bored--need more questions to answer !!          orb.

[Orb Vroomer]

    Ray-You said ---Well, after 8 pages the basic catches for me are:
1. Purposefully investigating and incorporating more of the OMB concept into my own playing, at least for artistic adventure.........

I knew you were an omb guy . You build things &  you are curious. What did you build ? a barn ? or was that Vince? a studio ? Did you go to a trade school? Can you do: carpentry,electrical,drywall,painting ? I'll bet you can. Plus I don't know what your day job even is. Spill those  beans anywhere ?

And you wanted to improve on keys..... Then you wanted to improve on guitar. We never talked about singing,but that's OK.
These traits are vital to becoming an omb type. Lots of musicians can play several instruments. Even if it is just a little bit, It adds up quick. Once you grasp a little composing ,you can get far pretty quick. You don't need to MASTER other instruments - just apply it to your songs or writing.I could tell from your vids. that you understood music well beyond drumming .Patterns,phrasing,melody - some of the building blocks of composing.Like when drummers sense the chord changes when jamming .I think Paul McCartney played every inst. on Ram.Or maybe Todd Rundgren.Many more like these.They didn't have to play it all at once--just play it all period.Those guys could make albums alone ,but they also knew that they could make better albums with "a little help from my friends".(Human interaction ?) Have you got set up like I suggested earlier?? If not -back up & do it.

It gets back to the not enough time issue--but that won't stop you. Once a little progress is made ,it will become addictive-you will be motivated once you get started.I will coach you, if you would like that. Would you?? With me, Vince & others ganging up on you -you can't lose. We will not allow our student to fail. Ok, just a NOVEL idea-but it might just work.Go for it.      orb.

[REF]

I renovate houses. Yeah, I know how to do alot of the various trade stuff. Knew carpentry, and learned other things during my time as a maintenance super of an apartment complex. I lack AC knowledge, though. But I can basically build my own house, bottom up. I built my house back in Maine. But mostly I add on or renovate.

I used to sing alot more than I do now. My voice is weak just from lack of use.

Well, the rooms are done and I can set back up. So .... we'll what comes next.